Building AI Agents to Launch a Million Businesses

[00:00] Increasingly, we believe that a founder will serve a customer, and then they will have multiple agents that will have to be part of this portfolio of tools that they offer to their customers. You can't start with an idea. You can't start with a technology. You can't start with a market size. You have to start with who do you want to serve for the next 10 years and what is a fundamental problem that they have that you feel that you can solve. Something that is going to be very important for portfolio entrepreneurship and for companies in the age of AI is durability. [00:30] more than the initial thing that you offered. [00:32] and some brands do this very well, you can imagine what a [00:35] Nike Hotel would look like. [00:37] but it's very difficult to compute what a Hilton shoe would be. So some companies and brands just have very clear permission [00:44] authenticity, authority to serve their customers in different ways, some doesn't. [01:03] AMAR AMAR: This podcast is sponsored by Google. Hey, folks, I'm Amar, product and design lead at Google DeepMind. We just launched a revamped Vibe Coding experience in AI Studio that lets you mix and match AI capabilities to turn your ideas into reality faster than ever. Just describe your app, and Gemini will automatically wire up the right models and APIs for you. [01:24] And if you need a spark, hit I'm feeling lucky and we'll help you get started. Head to ai.studio slash build to create your first app. The episode you're about to watch is with my friend Henrik Werdelin, co-founder of the startup studio Prehype, the co-founder of BarkBox, an author and an investor. Right now, he's one of the co-founders of Autos, which has the goal to help millions of people become entrepreneurs with AI. I've known Henrik for many years. His startup studio Prehype is actually where my company Every came from. I hope you enjoy the episode.

[01:54] I'm doing a keynote for Summit, and so I'm trying to find themes. You know what's an interesting theme that I don't think that a lot of people talk about is... [02:02] portfolio entrepreneurship, you know, which is kind of what you're doing now, which I guess we did at Prehype. I think a lot of people are intrigued about, but also it's been like kind of because so much of the conversation about... [02:14] Entrepreneurship has been defined by... [02:17] VCs telling people what Real Entrepreneurship is. [02:21] portfolio entrepreneurs have always been kind of like a bad thing. I totally agree. [02:25] VCs have kind of given it a bad name and there's this thing about, oh, you have to focus and... [02:35] So having a portfolio sucks. And it's like, well, you're the VC, like you have a portfolio. Exactly. You people should work 24-7, except you take eight weeks of holiday in the summer. [02:49] And one of the things I admired a lot or admire a lot about you, and I think people should know, there's a lot of... [02:56] Um, you, you know, you created this incubator pre-hype that there's a lot of spirit of pre-hype, uh, in every, every came out of pre-hype and, and I've kind of shamelessly ripped off certain things that I saw you do. Um, and one of those things is, I think you've, um. [03:12] You know, I looked at what you did every day sitting at pre-hype and you were running Bark, which is now a public company. And you also had all this other stuff going on, which you're absolutely not allowed to do. You're not supposed to do that. And...

[03:27] I was like, you know, in my heart of hearts, if I could be Henrik and have this like the sick venture backed company and also have this incubator that I run that's separate and like writing books and doing whatever it is that you were doing. I was like, I would. That sounds like a pretty good gig. And it only took me like six years and I'm definitely not not. [03:50] Not close to your level, but... I'm sure you're eclipsing soon. [03:56] I have definitely moved more in that direction. It's quite a good life. So portfolio entrepreneurship, a great idea. [04:04] You know what, there's a lot of things that kind of, I guess, now that I'm looking back over the years 2010 to 2020, 2021, which were kind of like a bit of a golden age for, I think, for New York entrepreneurship. And I think some of us was kind of lucky to be in the midst of it all. [04:21] There's a lot of components of that that I'm not trying to understand what actually happened. And there are these kind of things that we don't have terms for. And some of the things I'm exploring now, so everyday entrepreneurship. So all these people are trying to build businesses that... [04:39] will never become unicorns and never probably will get an adventurer. There's these kind of things like [04:45] the in-between time, which I think is this kind of interesting thing that entrepreneurs, they have, because... [04:51] Most people, if they're a lawyer or developer, their next job is as a lawyer or developer. But as an entrepreneur, your next job is definitely not going to be what you used to do, right? Because you probably tied and burned out of it. But so much of your personal narrative is linked up.

[05:07] in what you do. So you're kind of like in this weird... [05:10] waistline in the middle where you used to do something and now everybody's like, what's next? And you don't really know. And so there's this beautiful, very vulnerable time, which is this in-between time. I guess the last thing that I've been thinking a lot about is this notion of how do you create environment where... [05:26] amazing things. [05:27] appear? Specifically, how do you do it now when people are increasingly remote? [05:31] And I visited your studio the other day and kind of got to think about like, sometimes you actually have to create an environment, like a physical place where people go and they jam and they feel inspired and stuff like that. So, yeah, I've been very reflective of that time too. [05:46] It was a great time. And obviously the golden age ended as soon as you moved back to Denmark. [05:54] That I'll take full credit for that. New York, you know, just not the same. Yes. Yes. But, you know, maybe, maybe we'll be back. Maybe it'll come back at some point. Um, [06:05] I'm sure it will. That's actually the cool thing about, like, I think every time I visit New York now, it's like, it is a little bit like a college campus, right? You definitely see there's a new class of people, like there's a new crew and they're figuring their thing out, right? And building their kind of places. And that's what's so amazing with that city. [06:22] Definitely. I love it here. There's definitely a lot happening. And I hope to be one of the people building that building that crew. But I want to go back to the portfolio thing for a second. Why did you feel like you were allowed to do that? And how did you even pull that off?

[06:38] I mean, like, I think as many entrepreneurs... [06:42] It wasn't there, so I kind of just made it. [06:46] I don't know how I pulled it off because I think... [06:51] Even more so back then, it was considered kind of like a bad thing to do. And I'm also trying to... [06:56] trying to figure out like what it is that I did. Um, [07:00] And I think one of the kind of insights for me is that [07:03] I don't really, I don't really think like people who put out a goal and then work towards it. I'm more kind of exploring things. And so I kind of like find stuff that I find interesting. And then I look at the projects that I'm involved in and go like, which, where would this fit? And so it's a little bit kind of like a roundabout way of working. I think honestly, the way you get away with it is that you add a lot, enough value to the projects that you're involved in. [07:33] it. [07:34] Don't throw you out. [07:35] Or you convince them that you do. Exactly. Like very, very good jazz hands. I think most of my partners on the good days will say that they're very happy I'm involved. And on the bad days will go like, how does this work again? [07:53] It means you struck a good deal. Um, yeah, I actually think, um, you know, there are, uh, when I, when I think about the overlaps or why I ended up wanting to copy some of your, you know, how you've built your career, um,

[08:09] the desire to be curious and do a bunch of different things. Like some people get exhausted by doing a bunch of different things. And I am just, [08:18] I just want to be doing lots of stuff. And then some of those things turn into, um, [08:24] larger things and I just apportion more time to them as they become larger, but it's a very like bottoms up exploratory process. And I think the, the more standard startup thing is a little bit more like what a Peter Thiel or a Keith Fryboy would do. [08:37] you know you just like set a big you call your shot for this like big goal and that's the only thing you're focusing on that's certainly another way to do it um but i think the uh [08:48] Bottoms up exploratory. [08:50] startups as a curious way of life. [08:54] is a legit path to entrepreneurship. And it is actually particularly a thing for media entrepreneurs. I noticed a lot of media, media people have this because if you want to, if you're writing stuff all the time, it's because you're a curious person. [09:07] And so I think you may have... Well, you have a media background too. So you have a little bit of that media thing about you too. Back to the point about having kind of only one way of describing things. I do feel that there's many different flavors, many different pedagogy of entrepreneurship. And it's almost like we have told ourselves there's only kind of one way that... [09:32] There's like the, or maybe there's a few, right? Like there's the, there's the way that they teach you at Harvard business school about finding a big market and go after that. Yeah.

[09:41] Maybe there's the Lean Startup. [09:43] Gary Vaynerchuk had the hustle. You know, there's like different. But I do think that there's many, many different flavors of entrepreneurship. And we probably don't have a very refined vocabulary. [09:53] of how to describe some of these things. And I think what you're articulating here is, you know, maybe the media kind of background approach to entrepreneurship, which worked for some people and, and doesn't work for others. And that's fine, too. [10:07] A hundred percent. Um, and I think now that's, that's a really logical segue into, um, you're thinking about, um, [10:17] new shapes of entrepreneurs, specifically in AI, which I actually think the media stuff is a particular shape that is now newly possible. And we're sort of figuring that out. But you have another... [10:31] set of entrepreneurs that in the company that you started autos um in the book that you wrote your um [10:39] uh, [10:40] You're thinking about how they can start companies too and what that looks like. What are... [10:44] What have you learned? It's a moving target, right? So I'll give you, I know you had Nicholas on a bit ago, my co-founder at Autos and things. We're about to release our version two of the platform, which I can go into detail of what we learned. And I think some of it is akin to aligned with some of the thinking you have. I guess like on a few kind of. [11:06] parameters. First, I think entrepreneurship is increasingly being democratized because the entrepreneurial technology toolbox is increasingly being democratized. And I think it really started back from when the cloud kind of came about and then SaaS kind of made it even easier. And now

[11:29] It's so funny. I thought you said Claude, not Cloud. Yeah, yeah. I did say that. And I realized, just listen, my brain is completely confused. I know. I did say Cloud. Anyway. So now, you know, most people can do stuff. And 60% of Americans say they'd like to start something and only 80% does. And historically, I think there's been a good reason because it required resources and required specific capabilities. And now I think there's increasingly less of an excuse. [11:59] How do you make not one person make a unicorn, but more how do you make a million people make unicorns? [12:05] a million dollar turnover business, what we call donkey coin. [12:09] And so what I've learned is that first that we're pretty early in the [12:16] in the face of inventing what a genetic [12:19] businesses are. [12:21] I'm a little bit reminded of when I did a fairly large startup back in the 2000s in the video space. This is before YouTube. And we raised a bunch of money and... [12:31] Everybody kind of knew that video would go online. And then we raised all this money. And then we were like, hey, wait a minute. Nobody kind of like know how it would go online. Like things that are now very basic was... [12:42] just not invented? What will an electronic programming guide look on the internet? Will the video auto start or will you have to place play? Will the next video then start or should you stop? You know, and all those different things that now we take for granted for things that we had to invent. And I think as we're building autos right now, we're realizing that a lot of the agentic frameworks have just not invented, like take cloud, like, for example, what should be the name of a bot? Should that be a bot?

[13:07] a human name like Claude? Should it be a utilitarian name like OpenAI? Should it be a brand like Perplexity? And [13:14] With each of these small decisions we take, there's a lot of kind of like thinking that has to go into it. And I think we're just kind of chucking along and trying to figure these out. Where we are right now is we still have the ambition of launching hundreds of thousands of businesses a year. We've had our first cohort of a few thousand people come through. [13:32] And try to help them make a business. And I guess for what is new and interesting for you, I think one thing that we totally have gotten... [13:42] convinced about, which I think you are too, is that there won't be that many one agent businesses. I think increasingly we believe that a customer, a founder will serve a customer and then they will have multiple agents that will have to be part of this portfolio of tools that they offer to their customers. And so the portfolio thinking that we talked about earlier, and I think you've [14:10] also kind of now subscribing to. So the founder will come up with a customer they have to serve, they'll come up with an initial problem that they can solve for them, and then they'll create multiple basically agentic businesses or solutions for that specific space. [14:24] That's interesting. And I do think that, um, [14:28] That's one of my learnings about [14:31] Um, [14:32] let's say portfolio entrepreneurship that, um, [14:37] I had to figure out by myself, I couldn't just rip this off from you. Well, you obviously have come to this conclusion based on what you just said, but serving the same customer,

[14:44] um feels actually like a very important part of portfolio entrepreneurship like with every [14:52] Thank you. [14:53] the thing that makes it work. [14:55] is that... [14:57] The people who come and start companies with us or build products with us are from the same pool of people that we're serving that are that are our readers and our subscribers. [15:08] And the tools that we're building serve those same people. And so the ecosystem builds and becomes this cohesive process. [15:17] thing where when we launch a new tool, hopefully everybody in the community will, [15:24] likes it because we built it for ourselves and a lot of people in the community are kind of like us and we're just sort of building this um ecosystem people who are who are all on the same page versus i think the mistake that i see a lot of [15:35] that people do when they come to me and they're like, I'm going to do an EIR thing is, I'm [15:40] They are, they're running one business and they're like, but this is going to be in a totally different area with a totally different customer that I don't even understand. You need to compound. Yeah, you need to compound. And if you, if you do, it's like every, every nth thing you do just gets, it gets better and better. You know, your customer is better. They know you better. Like, um, and so you, you, you, you build something, you're building one thing instead of many things, even though it looks like many things, it's actually just one thing.

[16:10] kind of entrepreneurship and what works. I mean, like the whole book is the premise of what we call relationship capital. And what we argue in the book is that it's going to be one of the [16:21] few, if not the only moat that's going to be left in a time of age, a high where everybody can do everything. And so, I mean, like, if you look at everything that came out of prehub over 15 years, it's basically these relationship capital companies, it's companies that are not defined by what they do, but who they serve. [16:38] And you take Park Box as a good example. We never defined ourselves as a [16:42] company that puts stuff [16:43] in boxes because then our next business would have been the cat box. [16:48] we on the, you know, like which many people ask all the time. What we were about is we were about making products for dogs and the people who love them. And, and so the problems that we saw were problems for dog lovers and, you know, [17:02] And so our next big business was an airline for dogs, not the stuff in a box business. And you take Roe, which obviously also came out of the pre-hab world. You know, they basically solve medical problems for men who have something they're a little bit embarrassed about, being hair loss or ED or... [17:21] or weight loss. And so I am a full subscriber of that. The pedagogy that I very much understand is you can't start with an idea. You can't start with a technology. You can't start with a market size. You have to start with who do you want to serve for the next 10 years and what is a [17:38] fundamental problem that they have that you feel that you can solve. And then from that, we basically think that relationship capital has these three areas and we can go into them and do so if it's interesting. One is basically depth, which is how much does a customer feel seen by you? And I think you articulate it very well. People feel very seen when they know that you're kind of a little bit like them, but it was also like, do you respond to their posts when they comment on you something on online, stuff like that? How quickly do we answer their emails?

[18:08] second thing is density, which is really how much do they feel that you belong in the community that you serve? And I think same point again, people know that people in, [18:18] Patagonia or Palanton, they are part of the community, right? Like sometimes they are even the community. And the third part, which I think is going to be very important for a portfolio entrepreneurship and for companies in the age of AI is basically durability. And that is, are you allowed to offer more than the initial thing that you offer? And some brands do this very well. You can imagine what a Nike hotel would look like, but it's very difficult to compute what [18:48] just have very clear permission, authenticity, authority to serve their customers in different ways. Some doesn't have. [18:58] I think that's really good. And my add to that, my build, is the way that that has worked for me is, [19:07] Um, you know, cause I think where you started here is you have to identify a customer you want to serve for 10 years. [19:13] is [19:15] Um, [19:16] Instead of knowing who your customer is, know who you are. Hmm. [19:21] And, and that's not just a, I'm going to journal about who I am, although that can be part of it, or I'm going to go to therapy, which can be part of it. But it is a dynamic process of understanding. [19:33] building things putting things out in the world and that will tell you about who you are and what appeals to you and what you like and you have to just like iterate through a bunch of things to to to make that picture clear because a lot of it you know

[19:48] sometimes it's not very flattering. It's not actually what you want or not, not actually what you think you want to be. So for example, for me, I think when I was at prehype, [20:00] I really wanted to be a writer. [20:02] But it was very hard for me to admit that because I had a whole founder identity and I felt like it would interfere with that. And it took me like three years getting into every like for three years when I... [20:13] when the whole thing almost fell apart where I was like, what am I actually in this for? It's like, I really want to write. How can I like organize my day? So I'm like mostly writing and then, or at least half writing and then operating and [20:27] how do I make a business with that? Cause I also do really love business and I love technology, all that kind of stuff. And yeah, [20:32] So, um, as I've gotten clearer about who I am, [20:38] the products I can build and the company I can build becomes a much clearer, solid, [20:46] idea that has staying power because [20:50] I can be like the, the, the force or energy behind it in a way that's different from, um, I'm just putting on a show so that I can like raise the next round for the next year or so. Uh, and I don't really love banking for, uh, you know, [21:08] I don't know, male, male, former male people or whatever. I'm just making it up. I don't really love whatever I'm doing, but I'm just going to put on a show. Um, and that's, that's actually, um,

[21:19] It's hard to, at least for me, it was hard to learn how not to put on a show and just do the thing that was most reflective of me. [21:26] But that's the... [21:29] I think that's the game. I think the other reason why that is so important is because if it's not a natural customer for you to serve, if there's not what we think of as customer founder fit, then you don't have authenticity and authority to do it. And then I don't think that people will really buy into it. [21:49] the solution that you're solving. And I think that's going to be even more important, again, when people can do everything. Again, I think sometimes I hear people come and go like, oh, wouldn't it be cool if you built whatever? And I'm like, yeah, that might be cool, but not for you. It doesn't seem like a business that you should do at all. In the book, we have this framework called the five Ps. It's basically powers, passions, possessions, positions, or [22:19] basically look at yourself and figure out where do I have something that is innate in me that I can extract from and then build something around that. And so I think different people come to that conclusion different ways. I think you had like your journey and I had mine, but I will echo that every time that I try to build something to make it [22:41] successful, I end up not building something great. And every time I basically go for, I want to build cool shit with people I like, then I end up doing something that seems to resonate with people.

[22:53] What have you learned about who you are in the process of building companies over the last decade? [22:59] I have learned that I have a real role where I find people who are very talented. [23:08] And then I... [23:10] see something in them and then I help them find that and in many ways that role is kind of like a weird supporting actor role. I kind of have this mental model [23:23] Because pre-hype was called the studio, and I went deep and kind of study the [23:28] like music studios. And, [23:31] If you really study the Motown of the world or the one in London, I'm just blanking on, where Beatles have their stuff and there's one in Sweden where Max Martin kind of, [23:42] did a lot of like the 20s and pop music. What you see is there's like a few people there that kind of like get these uncut gems in, and then they help them find the baseline. They help them kind of cut the music, and then they create this magical stuff. And so the amount of like successful musicians that have come out of like Motown's or Abbey Road Studios or the one in Sweden is just incredible. [24:12] see myself, I think I'm learning that that is kind of both what I enjoy, but also what I seem to be good at finding people and then helping them figure out what should be their, their thing.

[24:24] What else? Give me something deeper. [24:26] Ah, something deeper. [24:29] Thank you. [24:31] I guess the thing that comes to mind, which I think was most... [24:36] surprising was that after we went public, I took a little bit of time where I didn't do much. And I kind of thought that I would [24:44] I guess... [24:45] borderline retire. And suddenly I felt that I was, I went to this very high end conference. And my feeling was that I had like a year where I still would be invited back to that. And so I got really worried of losing relevancy and I was trying to understand why I was so worried about it. And I, [25:05] I actually don't think it was about vanity, although there's probably some of that. But what I really, really, really enjoy is to get to talk to people like yourself and other people who have new original thought. And if you're not relevant, then you're basically not good. You don't get invited. You don't have interesting observation to trade with. And so you just kind of wither. [25:27] And that I think that the urge and need to be part of that club of people who think about new stuff, it was something that. [25:36] I guess I learned. Do you want a winning deck that'll actually help you land big deals? Pitch combines design, collaboration, and delivery all on one platform. With Pitch, there's no version chaos and no off-rand slides. [25:50] everything that you need to create and present [25:52] professional, beautiful decks. [25:54] Pitch's new AI actions let you instantly rewrite slide text for any audience.

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[27:34] finish line and then [27:36] And you get to the number that you wanted or the outcome that you wanted. And then you're like, well, I have to live my life the next day. But my whole life is now gone. And that's really hard. And I was thinking about that. And I think there's two ways of running companies. It's startups as a means to an end. And startups as a way of life. [27:58] and I, [28:00] if you run a company as a way of life, [28:04] Um, [28:06] Ideally, you want to... [28:08] Run it. [28:09] or be doing the things that running companies entails for a long time without a specific end date in mind. And ideally, you're... [28:19] Even if you sell one thing, your life is set up so that... [28:25] Um, [28:26] it's a way of life. It's not like I'm going to get to this end date and then do something totally different. It's like I have set up my life such that [28:35] I don't, maybe I want to take a vacation or maybe I want to like slowly pivot into something else, but I don't need to get away. I don't need to have that like one final, like it's over on out. And then I could do something else because that's, those are the periods that are, I think hurt the most or, [28:52] suck the most for entrepreneurs or feel very unnatural. [28:56] Yeah, that's very much resonate with me. And I think, you know, you've been better at doing self-work, you know, that the doing self-work for me is a newer thing. You know, I didn't get a coach or therapist until a few years ago where I was like, where I had a lot of time. I was like, oh, everybody else seemed to be really enjoying understanding why they are who they are. Look, my problems are pretty fucking deep. It was not about enjoyment. Let me tell you.

[29:26] But I definitely, as I then worked with my coach, you know, you obviously realize that these anxieties and these behaviors you have, like something that comes from childhood and from different things. And you try to understand that better. And I found that to be, you know, obviously sometimes very vulnerable, but most of the time just very vulnerable. [29:44] very interesting. But I think in terms of what I've learned myself about being [29:50] an entrepreneur, I've done it for so long that I just, I don't really know any other way. [29:56] I guess, I mean, I, I'm not sure anybody would ever offer me a job. Um, so, uh, so I guess I'm entrepreneur for life now. [30:05] Thank you. [30:06] I'm sorry. [30:08] Sometimes people ask, like, would you ever, you know, would you ever take a job? And you're like, I don't know. It depends what it was. You know, maybe. But people, like, assume that you just want to be an entrepreneur. [30:20] Sometimes when I hear like people, VCs have these amazing, I don't know, grass is always greener and I've never been a VC, but sometimes we hear about them getting this ridiculous kind of management fees and goof around. And then I like it. That's going to be a pretty good job. [30:36] I was going to say, like, when was the last, what's the last job where you maybe it wasn't offered to you, but like you, you had to be, you were really thinking maybe I should do that instead of this. [30:46] I mean, like this is pre, this is when I did pre-hype. I was, I was, I just finished a company that didn't work out and I was basically trying to figure out what to do next. And I was keeping all my options open. You know, so I.

[31:00] I got offered a job to run BBC digital on the international side. That's cool. I got offered. And then what I did do is I got offered a job. There's a kind of design agency called Wolf Allens, who had an incredible CEO called Carl. And he offered me a job. And I kind of like pivoted that into be the first project that... [31:23] that pre-hyped hat. And so, uh, you know, I kind of, [31:26] chose my path there. Well, I'm, I'm glad that you, you chose pre-hype instead of, uh, head of BBC digital. Cause I think at my, uh, my post. [31:37] First company life had been a lot harder. The reason why I found out was I did this thing where I wrote down all the, what I call micromonions. Basically micromonions for me are things when I'm in flow and things where I'm happy. And it can't be kind of like big thing like, you know, [31:50] uh you know having a family it has to be like very concrete things like i like walking over the brooklyn bridge in the morning you know it's just i get profoundly happy about that right or i like being in brainstorm meetings with people like you and stuff like that and so i ended up having these micro moments which is these 30 kind of concrete periods where i've done stuff and then i started to use that as a way to measure options that would be thrown at me so you know the bbc it sounded like it was a lot of money and it was like a cool job and it would give me kind of like [32:20] self-esteem for a second. But then when I looked at what it would entail, none of the micro moments would be included. And so I was like, ah, probably not for me. What are your top micro moments and how have they changed as you've gotten older? I think it's probably after I got kids.

[32:37] Um, because now, um, [32:39] I didn't like kids much before I had them. I was like, oh, they're annoying. And I think even when my wife was like, we should really look at this kid's stuff. I was like, oh, maybe. But now I have a five-year-old and an 11-year-old, and it is just really, really incredible. So a lot of the moments now are just... [32:59] re- [33:00] Kind of re-exploring the world with them or through them. And they ask all these interesting questions and, you know, like you don't have the answers to. Like, what's a good one recently? Oh, why do some people get very popular at school and some does not? [33:17] Mmm. [33:19] I'd like to know the answer to that. Oh, dad, what's going to happen if I won't be able to afford a house like the size that we live in? [33:28] Hmm. [33:30] Then I won't love you. And then that was it. Obviously not like your brother, you know, like your brother better. No. Um, but so, so I think some of the, a lot of the micro moments around that. I also through my twenties and thirties, maybe part of my early forties, I was so anxious to succeed that I don't remember a lot of the stuff. [33:51] And so... [33:52] I have so many micro moments now because I gotten a little bit more kind of chilled. Um, and so I can actually really enjoy all the stuff that I do every day. And yeah, [34:04] So I think a lot of the early years of even a pre-hub is just a little bit of a blurb because I just wanted to make it and didn't really have the energy to kind of stop and enjoy it.

[34:16] Every day. [34:17] How are you dealing with your kids and AI? [34:20] It's a good question. I mean, like, um, [34:25] I have an 11-year-old, which are kind of just when iPads were kind of... [34:31] And so we took a sabbatical with him and people were like, how was that with a six-year-old at the time? And I was like, there's great. He had an iPad and there was YouTube. So problem solved. And now, you know, reading, what's he called? Jonathan, Jonathan Hyde's book, Anxious Generation. I'm like, okay, that was probably not a good idea. [34:55] So the younger one doesn't have YouTube and doesn't have a lot of the same thing. [35:01] Have you noticed a difference? [35:03] in their temperament and how they are. [35:06] Yeah, but I think it might be genetic. Like the young one don't want to play on his iPad because there's nothing interesting on it. And the older one is just completely addicted to it. So... [35:17] Maybe that's because of Roblox and YouTube that the older one had access to and the younger one does not. But what would be the personality explanation? Like what are they both like? [35:26] otherwise you know i'm increasingly kind of buying into the thesis that a lot of this stuff is just super generic sorry uh it's all the genes like it's all the dna i i think we i think we as parents would like to think that we have like so many so much impact on these kids but i have i have [35:45] two boys they're six years apart they've gone exactly through the same stuff right pretty much and they are a night a day like

[35:54] One is blonde, the other one is brown in hair, and one is like a little clown that talks all the time. The other one is more of an introvert. They're just completely different. And I don't think that we necessarily did that much different. So I think on AI specifically, I think AI is like electricity. I think it's going to be a transformative technology. And I drank the Kool-Aid, and so I think they have to learn about it. [36:24] to all the different foundational models and they use it a lot. They will have long conversations with [36:32] I think my youngest like Pi the most and the oldest use ChatTBT the most, but they have full access to it. And I teach them how to Vibeco and they know how to do stuff like that. And I'm kind of all bought into that. [36:48] And are you like monitoring their chats? And if so, how? [36:52] Yes and no. We talk a lot about first principles and so we have first principles of how we interface with machines and we... [37:03] You know, that is some of the elements. There's just rules like some of them are just basic rules. Like when you talk to somebody on the Internet, you can't give you a real name. You can't, you know, I sometimes do go through the chat history and just kind of get a little bit of understanding on it. [37:17] Mostly with the youngest. The oldest is getting 11. He's a pre kind of puberty teenager getting there and I feel he deserves his privacy. And so there are things that I don't want him to talk about. And I have like, I put rules on the network level, right? So I have something called a firewall, which is a kind of firewall that you can kind of put stuff on. I'm so glad you are not my parent.

[37:47] my parents have no idea what a firewall is thank god and my only it's going to be difficult to watch porn in this household I'm telling you that I mean like they all know about VPNs stuff like that but they yeah [38:08] Yeah, I mean, like we do have a little bit of like a bad, like, for example, the oldest, he doesn't have a smartphone. He has an Android and it's like completely locked down. It has black and white interface only. You can, he can only use useful apps. And so sometimes, and I'll get a notification every time there's a new app that gets installed, even though you can't, I locked it. So you can't install new apps, but he will find ways to do it. And so we will have this, like, how the hell did you get past that security measurement? [38:38] No, man. But he still haven't found a way to disable me knowing about it. And so he still gets caught when he does it. But I kind of like that little kind of like, yeah. [38:49] Like having the competition of EV can circumvent my security systems. A little cat and mouse game. Yeah, I like it. What do you find they're using it for? [39:00] I find them, they increasingly, like me, use it for most things. [39:07] The six-year-old, five-year-old, he talks a lot. [39:11] outlawed. And so, uh, [39:14] Sometimes the family, I just a little bit just can't be bothered talking to anymore. So I think he just like talks to it as it's like somebody's talking. Somebody's asking questions like he's he's a very proactive guy. So he's like, I'd like to come up with things to do this weekend with my family. And what could you suggest? The

[39:34] Alderwein is more philosophical. And so he has like areas of interest. He had the Second World War he was very interested in. He was very interested in Titanic. And so last time I checked, he had spent like hours basically role playing that he was in the Second World War and that he just landed on the beach of Normandy and basically was kind of role playing himself into how that'd be. And he had like what seemed to be a very, very lengthy role. [40:01] kind of just using his imagination to be kind of [40:05] Yep. [40:05] positioned as he was a soldier in the Second World War. [40:09] That's really interesting. It's super fascinating. [40:13] I mean, he also used it for like, [40:15] He doesn't use the schoolwork that much, but they also, our school... [40:19] don't seem to mind it they kind of embrace it rather than kind of shun it so uh so uh yeah he's it for that too [40:28] He is a little bit negative on it. There's definitely a sense of that. Can you just stop talking about AI stuff for a second? Oh, so that's a bit of, yeah, that's a bit of that. [40:39] Is that because, you know, his classmates in the environment is negative on it? Or is it like, is it a personal thing? Like one of the things I've been feeling about the AI wave is it's the first tech wave that I can remember that 25 to 35 year olds... [40:55] seem psyched about it. [40:57] Because it was created by 25 to 35 or 40 year olds. But usually it's like the Mark Zuckerberg, you know, 18 in his dorm room. And this is the first big one that's not that. And I think that that has created a different sentiment among teenagers for it than...

[41:16] is normal or is sort of the usual way it works so what is what it what where do you think the negativity comes from i think for him i think it's a little bit different from what i sense it is for the rest of the world i definitely sense also like this [41:29] two-tier world where some people really [41:33] Some people are really into it and some people just think it's really bad and... [41:38] write a comment every time they see something that's generated by AI online. I think for him, I think honestly, it's a little bit more just rebelling against me. I think it's a little bit like, I'm just tired of you talking about it. That's your thing. It's not my thing. So I think it's more him just being... [41:56] you know, [41:57] the anti-parent thing rather than necessarily AI. [42:00] Got it. Okay. [42:02] That makes sense. One of the things that [42:05] occurs to me is... [42:07] You talked about them asking you all these questions and that being delightful. [42:13] How has that affected how... [42:15] you know, they can get an answer to anything. [42:18] immediately. [42:20] So how has that affected what they ask you and also just being able to get answers and go deep and just go why, why, why, why, why, until you get down to like quantum gravity? [42:31] How has that affected them and what they know about the world and how they think about the world? [42:36] Thank you. [42:37] My observation is that they just know so much. I mean, like my son will often tell me something that I just didn't know about. Oh, we'll sit at a restaurant and he'll go like, oh, you know, what's happening here is blah, blah, blah, or this specific fruit or, you know, and you'll go like, what? How do you know about that?

[42:55] I also think, honestly, maybe that's going back to my childhood. I think they just talk much more with us than I talk to my parents. Like, we're together a lot, and we talk a lot about a lot of things. And so there's that... [43:08] I don't know. I'm just very impressed by it. I do tons of talks now, both at universities, but also at high schools and [43:17] I'm honestly just very impressed by young people. They're just very thoughtful and seem to be very knowledgeable about the world and seem to be very sophisticated about... [43:28] a lot of things. And so, I don't know, it just seems like evolution is doing its thing. We were doing dumb shit because we had nothing else to do and they seem to be doing smarter things because I mean like... [43:42] I grew up without a computer and the internet or any of those things. Right. And so when you had like a week and it wasn't that my parents was programming my weekend where I. [43:53] These kids, of course, have access to everything. And so they will want to have a conversation about stuff and they will have good points. And so I'll engage with them in kind of an adult way. But yeah, I think it's just, it's a little bit like it's just... [44:09] Two different speeches almost. [44:12] I think that's what it is, too. [44:13] Um, [44:15] you're watching humans become different. [44:18] species. And that's always, and that happens in every generation. And that's always uncomfortable for adults. One thing that I've been thinking quite a bit about lately, specifically about entrepreneurship, but it kind of goes broader is how much you should lean into your negative, negative view of the world and how much you should leave into a positive. And I do think that,

[44:38] People like yourself who have a lot of people who listen to you have like this choice where it's not difficult to see some of the problems in the world. And it's not difficult to see how, for example, AI can make things very complicated by job losses and all these different things. [44:55] But it's also not too difficult to think of all these positive things. Like if we talk about entrepreneurship, for example, like we have a country in the U.S. where we're very proud of it being, [45:05] basically born by entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship. And the entrepreneurship that it was born by was not the unicorns, it was the mom and pop stores, right? Which we don't talk about at all. Now we have this quite a golden opportunity where anybody who can identify a customer and come up with a original, interesting way to solve a problem for them, [45:26] really have the opportunity to do that. That is pretty unique. That is incredible. And so we believe that the future is... [45:35] you know, what we make it, then we, [45:38] and we know that we made something wrong when we made the social web, which a lot of us was part of, then we can try to imagine something that is really good for a lot of people. And then we can just try to go and make that. And we can go and articulate that we would like to make it so that everybody gets inspired by and do a little bit more of that. And in general, I think the world is currently pretty cynical. And I think when it comes to my kids and it comes to [46:03] How I would like to kind of throw energy into the world, I think it's more about trying to find a way of showing energy.

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[47:47] and use the code Dan, D-A-N, [47:50] for a free month of Framer Pro. [47:52] Rules and restrictions may apply, of course. And now, [47:56] Back to the show. I totally agree. That's what I try to do. And I think you make a good point. [48:02] about [48:03] social web. I actually think the reason, one of the main reasons why the default is negative is because the discourse has been so negative about the social web for the last 10 years. And we're applying a lot of the same [48:18] feelings onto AI. [48:20] In ways that sometimes are fair and I think in a lot of cases are unfair because they're very different. [48:26] And it was this interesting, there's this interesting swing, like when I was really first starting to get aware of the startup ecosystem and whatever in like 2010. [48:37] It was... [48:38] So positive. [48:40] Like, you know, the social, the social network had just come out the movie and like, everyone was like, this is amazing. Um, and then in 2016, it totally flipped. [48:49] And I think we're still seeing some of that. [48:52] some of that play out and and you have this interesting point about why ai is very different [48:58] to the social web. [49:00] yeah um thank you for teeing me up uh well that's just because i've been like telling that story like it was mine for a bit so this is just a little bit just my guilt kind of like the guilt was coming over me it's probably because i almost was about to tell this story like it was me but then i realized that i done i did this once i was sitting with stacy as you

[49:30] We're sitting in Cannes, some festival, and we're telling stories about airlines. And I tell the story about how I had this kind of battle of the armrest. And then suddenly at one point, this person said, hey, do you mind? I have a prosthetic arm. And then I was very embarrassed. And I tell the story like it's me. [49:51] It wasn't my story at all. It was Stacy's story. And as I'm telling this story, I realized that Stacy's sitting at the dinner and I'm like, Oh no, I had to fess off. Um, so this is what was about to happen. I'm glad that you caught it. Cause I actually have had that happen to me where people do my own bits back to me. And I'm like, I literally, we did, we talked about this like three weeks ago and like, you're, you're doing this back to me. I've given you full credit of [50:21] I probably have like a more sharp version of it now, so I can use that for the next few weeks. [50:25] So the very basic, and feel free anyone to rip this off, is the social web operated on revealed preference. So what you click on is what you want. [50:40] And we acted as though reveal preferences, all that people are, because that's what you really want. And the reality is that you're always going to click on a car crash. And so that's where that's where things go, they get more extreme. [50:52] But I think humans are quite a bit more complex than that. And one of the beautiful things about AI is it operates based not just on what you click on, but what you say.

[51:04] Um, and what you say about who you are actually, I think has a, has a, um, um, [51:10] is real and relevant. And so, and I think you can see the difference in the ways that if I asked, you know, ChatGPT to make me a for you page versus my Instagram for you page, [51:20] ChaiGPT is super wholesome and Instagram is like the trashiest slop. And we may see that change over time. And I assume that, you know, AI will get a little bit more racy over time or a little bit more sloppy over time. But... [51:35] I do think that is a fundamentally, it's a fundamental difference to the [51:40] the the way that these algorithms see us as human beings is they're [51:45] Language models are much more multidimensional and complex, and I think that will make them healthier. [51:50] I very much buy into that. I want to buy into that because I want to see something that's positive. But it is incredible. I was just like asking Chachupiti, what is my Bricks thing? And I realized that my Bricks has been debunked. It's like not something that you should use, but it is incredible that it just immediately goes like you are, yes, whatever. And it's right, right? So... [52:11] It does have a pretty good sense. [52:14] Yeah. [52:15] Thank you. [52:16] You know what? I literally just posted on LinkedIn. I'm ESPN, I think. ESPN is a TV channel. [52:29] So not that. If you could hear, I really use it in a serious way every day. Let me tell you, as you're asking me. I think that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard you say.

[52:42] I know so little about these things. [52:45] I was at the Goldman Conference once and there's all these like famous people. And I know not a lot about American sport because I grew up in Denmark. And so I'm standing there and I talked to this guy and he's very, very, very kind and nice. And he's just pivoting. He's in his in-between time. And it's amazing. He used to work in sports and now he's doing like whatever. And so I talked to him for a while and then, you know, it turns out he's in his he was in baseball. [53:15] My co-founder, Matt Meeker, is somewhere. And I see him coming. He goes like, and he's totally into sports. I was like, come on, look around, Matt. And Matt comes over and he gets like all weird. And I introduced him. It turns out to be Jared Dieter. And I just didn't know who he was. And so maybe a little bit of that. I will tell you on the, what am I? I am ENTP. [53:37] ENTP. Okay. I'm... [53:41] I'm INTJ. Extroversion, intuition, thinking, perceiving. [53:47] So we're, well, actually I used to be INTJ and now I think I've changed, but I'm like somewhere, I'm somewhere close to you. I'm on the border between I and E. I know that. But then I wrote the blog post and then this therapist that I know basically sent me this long study from a few years ago that basically said that. [54:08] this whole thing had been debunked and you said it all. I think it's useful if you like, it's useful if you think about it as, um, a story that you can try on and it can highlight different things in your life that you find to be real. And, um,

[54:23] I've got a thesis on it. Now you mentioned the word story, and it's about this idea of serving a customer instead of defining your company as what you do. [54:33] And the thesis is that we need to become much better. Maybe it's just because I'm a media entrepreneur, as we just defined it. I think you need to be much better at defining your narrative. And the narrative have to be pretty unique and... [54:46] very specific to you because otherwise the AI models won't be able to help you. [54:52] If I write in to ChatGPT, hey, the founder of BokBox is two treats, two toys, and a chew, and I'd like to come up with some new products, I bet you'll mention the stupid cat box idea. But if I say... [55:06] you know, I'm into making dogs and their people happy and blah, blah, blah. You know, it might come up with like other problems that dog lovers have and that. And so I do think that there's this interesting point where... [55:16] the narratives that we create are going to come [55:19] you know, it's just going to become very important because that is what we can use as you are putting on this AI Ironman suit. [55:26] and thus is going to be something that you need to have done. [55:29] The, uh, there's that Steve, Steve Jobs quote, which is the most powerful person is the person who, um, [55:36] who tells stories, the most powerful person is the storyteller. And I think that's totally right. And I will say, I just asked both Claude and ChatGPT what my Myers-Briggs... [55:48] And they both said INTP. [55:51] So we're pretty close. There you go.

[55:56] Then we'll have our agents talk to each other's agents. [56:01] How far do you think that's... [56:04] Away from happening. The pure agent to agent. Agents talking to agents? Yeah. I mean... [56:10] It's happening. I think it's happening now to a certain degree. But I don't think we're I don't think we're too far off. Like, here's an example. [56:21] I will... [56:24] uh, [56:26] I will submit a PR on our website. [56:29] on our code base and then [56:31] uh kieran who runs quora which is one of our products like first there's an automated clod that just like runs in github and does a does a code review and then he will pull it down and then [56:43] ask his clod to fix a bug or change the implementation or whatever. So it's already like... [56:50] there's like three, there's an agent sandwich. There's like three layers of agents between the two people. So I think, I think it's really, it's happening. What's going to happen to storytelling then when I'm my agent, it's going to read my every, every, [57:05] newsletter and then [57:07] rewrite it. [57:08] I think there's a lot of [57:14] much more, there's a lot of [57:17] commoditized information that will be subsumed under ai um [57:24] you know, like textbooks are a good example. Like most textbooks are just not that useful, um, or not that individual. I'll say that. Um, but I do think there's always a, people want information from a particular type of, from a particular person or a particular source, because it carries a particular perspective. And, um, yeah,

[57:46] We have always consumed summaries of works of art or pieces of writing. [57:54] whether that's a book flap or a title or any of those things. And so this is just an extension of that. [58:02] And I think it is better for artists or writers to... [58:08] have different forms of their work available for people who are at different levels of commitment and have different levels of attention. And it's always a funnel into the thing that you hope to do. [58:23] you hope people experience, but you can't necessarily expect that to be the first thing that they engage with. And so yeah, [58:31] I think good writers or good artists will find ways to make compelling, make whatever the AI summarizes of their work compelling and make it compelling enough that people want to consume the deeper real thing. [58:45] You know, as you're saying this, one thing that we haven't announced yet through autos, but... [58:50] It might be out when this gets out. Otherwise, breaking news. Is the business model that we're looking to do with our entrepreneurs. So Autos is obviously this platform where you can build your own AI startup. And we help you with everything from coming up with the idea to financing it, to making the ads, to talk to your customers and all those different things. And we've been thinking a lot about what the business model is on many levels. What is the business model for founders serving customers?

[59:20] It's probably not just SaaS anymore. Like SaaS might be a part of it, but there's probably going to be all these other models emerging. And we can see that on platform already. But for us to the founder, what we are increasingly inspired by is basically old labels, like music labels. And so the first kind of cohort of founders that we're going to have coming out are basically people that we have signed like we are a label. And they are basically... [59:46] an artist, an entrepreneur in residence on our label, and then we give them money and resources and marketing and all the stuff that label will do. And then we take a royalty. So we don't take equity in their business. We just take a royalty on the top line. But in many ways, and maybe in spite of what you say about equity, [1:00:02] media entrepreneurship, like maybe a lot of this vibe coded solo entrepreneurship, increasingly they look like artists because what they will need to do is to have the [1:00:12] And, [1:00:13] interestingness, they will have to have a story, something that resonate with a group of customers. And they'll need to be able to articulate that in a way where they get [1:00:21] authenticity and authority to do that. And then in return, they're going to offer not just writing, which is traditional, obviously, media entrepreneurship, but also products, which you guys, of course, are doing, but that we are now hoping to scale so that if the media landscape got disrupted by YouTube, where everybody could make a channel, [1:00:43] However niche it was, I think increasingly we're trying to see it as like the same thing where people get on our platform, they'll get signed and then they'll serve customers and we'll take care of all the boring stuff so they can take care of the relationship capital.

[1:00:57] Hmm, that's really interesting. And are they all serving a similar type of customer? [1:01:03] Well, they're all serving very different customers, right? I think in many ways, we don't have a good way of articulating, but we basically have this thesis that the Dunbar rule is going to work in an AI world too, but it's going to be... [1:01:19] exponential. So we call it Dunbar Square. So that the TAM of a good customer group is 150% [1:01:29] Lifted in seconds, so 200... [1:01:31] 20,500. And that's the TAM. And that is a group where you can do something new. So the people that are on the platform are people who, the one we had, we just had a piece come out in The Economist about a woman called Sarah. She unfortunately lost her dad. And then she realized that the whole world about loss is very... [1:01:51] non-innovative, anything from... [1:01:54] grief, counseling, and support to like body logistics. Like how do you literally get your dad's body from A to B? And so she's building all these different agents to help you with that. So very niche here, we have like a woman from Texas. She helps people, women who have just given birth to get in shape after a pregnancy. And so that of course, start with making kind of a fitness protocol, but it also is about calorie counting and sleep in all those different things. [1:02:24] What you see on the platform is a little bit like YouTube that you just have like people who have this very specific knowledge about tree cutting in Florida or survival trips in Washington.

[1:02:38] That's really interesting. [1:02:40] And when's that launching? [1:02:44] I mean, like, what's fascinating this week, maybe next week, like, you know, what's fascinating is, and I think, [1:02:53] a conversation that my my business partner nicholas and i have a lot is we are increasingly writing all the features right so we are vibe coding the features and then we have a few engineers working with us and they are then basically enterprising it so but [1:03:10] We have rewritten the platform. We launched in June with V1, which was very text heavy and was very kind of authentic. And now we're kind of as Vibe coding and Vibe coding. [1:03:21] app creation is becoming easier we wanted to implement that and so um we have in this next version of future you basically come in and you riff with uh [1:03:33] our agents on what business you want to make and then we build the landing page we built the first initial agents we built this thing which i think is very important which is basically an agentic communication layer between you and your customers so you can have high relationship capital like a strong omnidirectional relationship with your customers um but done with an agentic layer and then we do the ads and these kind of things and all this stuff we have the core components [1:04:03] a few months. And so, and of course, like when you're sitting and writing, as you know, [1:04:07] When you can write code,

[1:04:09] as fast as you can write blog posts, then you constantly come up with these new things that you want to add to the system. And so give us a few weeks and the V2 will be ready. [1:04:20] That's great. And, uh, for people who are listening to this and want to find you or find autos, um, where can they find you? Autos.com is where you can go and make a company with us. And so we'll help people do that. Um, the, uh, I'm, I'm active on LinkedIn. So connect on LinkedIn and here are my, my random inkles and my, uh, [1:04:39] my bad copies of whatever a dent shipper I've said. Um, and so, yeah, that's probably, I wrote this book called me, my customer and I, and I have a podcast called beyond the prompt with Stanford professor Jeremy Otley. So, [1:04:52] Plenty of places where you can hear me baffling. [1:04:55] Awesome. Henrik, always a pleasure. [1:04:57] Thank you so much. [1:05:06] Oh my gosh, folks. You absolutely, positively have to smash that like button and subscribe to AI&I. Why? Because this show is the epitome of awesomeness. It's like finding a treasure chest in your backyard. But instead of gold, it's filled with pure, unadulterated knowledge bombs about chat GPT. [1:05:28] on the edge of your seat. [1:05:29] craving for more. It's not just a show, it's a journey into the future with Dan Shipper as the captain of the spaceship. [1:05:37] So do yourself a favor, hit like, smash subscribe, and strap in for the ride of your life.

[1:05:43] And now, without any further ado, let me just say, Dan, I'm absolutely hopelessly in love with you.