Ep 167: MALWARE, serious tech news from unserious people. 1) OpenAI Drama Again 2) Kamala Talks Crypto (Kind Of) 3) Crypto National Convention 4) Interview with Asta Li, CTO of Privy on Onboarding in Web3

[00:00] I do have some bad news. [00:01] What? [00:02] Sephora catering is done. [00:05] I was like, oh. [00:07] Where's my favorite sandwich? No more muffin sandwiches. No more muffin sandwiches. English muffin sandwiches, just for the record. [00:33] The Boys Club podcast? No, no. [00:36] Just boys club. [00:37] Hello. How's it going? Good. Welcome to Malware. It's where we talk about the tech news from the week and sometimes bring on very smart people to talk about a tech trend or tech idea. I think an important distinction is we're a non-technical look at the tech news of the week. [00:55] Deeply un-technical. Non-technical. Deeply un-technical. Deeply unserious at times. I saw a tweet the other day that I really liked from our friend Reggie. He said... [01:05] Please stop referring to yourself as non-technical. Tell us what you are. [01:08] And I really liked it and I thought, [01:12] What you just said really makes a lot of sense. Unserious. Yeah, we're not untechnical. We're unserious. Anyway, today we're going to be talking about a few things. We are going to be talking about the OpenAI drama. We are going to be talking about Kamala Harris touching ever so gently on crypto and what that means. And then we're also going to be talking about the Crypto National Convention, a fun, unserious project that we're loving right

[01:42] Astali, who's the CTO at Privy. We are talking about onboarding in crypto, onboarding in Web3, big conversation that's happening all over the timeline right now. And Privy is addressing it very squarely head on. And so we had a great chat with her about the work that she's doing there. [02:01] Give it a listen. [02:02] you [02:03] Hey, Natasha. So a question we get asked a lot is, what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor, Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7, along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out [02:33] kraken.com backslash boys club and see what crypto can be not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive inc [02:45] OpenAI. [02:46] Real Housewives level drama happening here. [02:52] I cannot wait. I honestly have been avoiding it because I wanted to hear directly from you. You're the only person I wanted to learn from. The girlies are being so dramatic. Dream-a, dream-a. Note for Kate, you got to edit in the That's My Opinion clip. Oh, the best. That's my opinion. It can be used in so many situations. Yeah.

[03:16] few days over there at OpenAI HQ, [03:21] So here's what happened. A few big things. And there's also some breaking news this morning. [03:26] The first one... [03:27] A bombshell on the timeline. [03:29] Huge. Mira Moradi is leaving. She's out. Mira Moradi, CTO, OpenAI. This was yesterday. She released an amicable statement saying that she's leaving OpenAI. She is going to do everything that she can to ensure a smooth transition. Transition of power. Transition of power. She's loved the time. All the things that she's done has been incredible. Six years. And she's moving on to explore the world. [03:53] new opportunities. Okay. I wanted to do a tweet last night. That was like a joke that was essentially trying to hire. That would have been funny. I couldn't craft it exactly, but I was like, it's there. There's something there, but I didn't get to it in time. So that happened first and everyone was like, whoa, my gosh. Last year, famously, there was a big shuffle. Sam was out, board shake up, all the drama that happened last year with OpenAI [04:23] was kind of the holdout. [04:25] through that shakeup and drama that happened. And there's four founders. And in the big shakeup, it was like, [04:32] to [04:33] of the band... [04:35] were against and Mira was with Sam and it was all if anybody remembers it was all the hearts everybody was sending hearts to each other on Twitter I remember that [04:45] Which is so, I was like, this is the leader of our future and we're just hitting heart emojis back and forth. Oh my gosh. And yeah, so Mira was kind of staying on side and has stayed on side for the last year as there's been further leadership shakeups. And so she's kind of always been seen as like, she's in and that's been important for Optix, because she's the CTO. And so her leaving was a huge hit. Then there was more that hit the timeline. Two other people.

[05:14] that announced that they were leaving. Bob McGrew, the chief, my lip flip is kicking in. I'm so jealous. I need one so bad. I got a fresh lip flip. I saw a picture of myself the other day, and I was like, that upper lip needs to be [05:28] botoxed apologies to the listeners you can probably hear it i'm doing my best uh bob mcgrew chief [05:37] "Research officer. [05:38] He was notably a very public voice of O1 just a few weeks ago. So he was taking interviews. Was he part of the Band of Brothers in that video? He was one of the Band of Brothers. Yeah, exactly. And so... [05:49] he's out chief research officer is out and then this person barrett zoff vp of post training so three [05:58] Bye. [05:59] profile exits and everyone's like oh my gosh it's crazy then sama drops a tweet on the timeline it's this long tweet that's basically like in so many words he's saying leadership changes happen all the time so get the fuck over it and it's normal and everything's fine mira has been great we love her everyone's leaving amicably one of the things he said was like bob and barrett both made their decisions independently and they're leaving independently and like get over it everyone [06:29] foreign company and big important companies have go through changes. They're not all leaving together. They're not. Well, [06:35] Who knows? But that wasn't part of the story. That wasn't part of the story. I mean, a lot of people are saying that they're going to Anthropic and they're going to rival companies. But that wasn't really a part of any of the public statements. OK.

[06:47] very interesting fact which was revealed in sam's tweet [06:51] was that he said that Mira Maradi, when she told him she was leaving, she had told him this morning he was leaving. I saw this. I saw someone highlighted it. Screenshot, highlight, post it. If you're... That to me... [07:07] Something's something's amiss. Signal something's really, really amiss. She freaked out. [07:13] Or she knows Sam and she was like, I have to do, I got to. [07:16] We can't talk about it in advance. I just have to do it on the day. I just have to do it. Yeah. Yeah. [07:21] Maybe I imagine her like calling her best friend and being like, I think I just have to do it. Like, I think I just have to do it. But like if if I knew you were leaving Boys Club. [07:29] If you were going to leave Boys Club, we would be talking about it for months and months and months and months and months. My last job that I left. [07:37] three months [07:39] three month exit. [07:40] Yeah. For not the CTO of OpenAI. I can assure you that. So that's crazy. That's crazy. Yeah. What has become a part of the story is... [07:51] governance drama. So basically, [07:53] what was confirmed by reuters this morning so it's thursday morning just confirmed in an article is that sam is interested in restructuring [08:02] OpenAI. [08:03] from a non-profit to a B Corp, a benefits corporation. Benefits corporations are for profit and benefits corporation. We talk about benefits of corporations. I have a whole baggage, B Corp baggage with them, but basically it's a for profit. And the key differences are currently opening is run by a non-profit. That means you have to answer. Sam essentially has the answer to a non-profit board. Yeah. This change, this restructuring, corporate restructuring

[08:33] the nonprofit board, it makes it much more attractive to investors. [08:38] reportedly Sam... [08:40] would get a 7% equity stake. [08:43] after the restructuring the company could be valued at 150 billion dollars that's [08:49] Crazy. Insane. Another key difference is that right now, I think you'll remember when we've done some reporting on OpenAI, is that they have that cap on returns for investors. Yeah. [08:59] that would leave. There's no longer a cap on what can be returned to investors. [09:06] The nonprofit will continue to exist, but it would just own a minority stake. And basically, [09:12] It... [09:12] just [09:13] becomes a for-profit company. B Corps, they are for-profit companies that aim to create a positive impact on society and the environment in addition to making a profit. [09:24] My experience with B Corp, they were really big in like 2013, 2014, 2015. I remember that, yeah. And there's a certification process and there is like reporting and accountability that you need to do to make sure that it's doing this sort of dual benefit of benefit for society and the profits. But it's also a little... I always, whenever I hear someone's like, "We're B Corp," I'm like, "Oh, that's just like a tax loophole thing for you." Either a tax loophole thing or honestly why I was involved with it was because, [09:51] it was like a marketing thing where you get the B certification stamp on your thing. Jenny Kang has that or something. Yeah. And like, it's like on the milk carton and it's like a little B with a circle and Patagonia Kickstarter, Kickstarter,

[10:04] from [10:06] The good old days. Good old days. I saw a really funny tweet today that said, this is from Netcap Girl, who's very funny. Sam Altman faced with the difficult choice of, quote, continue running a nonprofit, end quote, or... [10:19] New quote, $10 billion. [10:32] Do you think it's just like, oh, softening the blow of them going from nonprofit instead of like going full C Corp? [10:37] Perhaps that's where we're at with OpenAI story. [10:41] I can't wait to see where Mira ends up. [10:44] I cannot wait to see. For someone like her, I wonder... [10:49] what [10:50] sort of challenges you are excited to solve and why those couldn't be at open AI and curious if part of what it was, was the structure changing from, [10:59] a non-profit to a corporation essentially that's the speculation is that she's [11:04] It's no longer tenable. Has there ever been a more fundable person to exist ever? Ever. Oh my gosh. Wow. [11:12] If she's looking for angel investors in her next venture, please reach out. Hey, Mira, we have a couple $2,000 checks for you. [11:20] Thank you. [11:21] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[11:51] B at kraken.com backslash boys club, not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss and is offered to us customers through payward interactive Inc. No third-party transfers available. [12:03] We're going to talk about Kamala Harris. There is an incredible impersonation. Did you see the woman who's walking into McDonald's and she does the Kamala Harris? Oh my God, it's incredible. It really made me laugh a lot. I'll drop in the show notes. Here, Kamala Harris has said her first words about crypto since starting her presidential election. [12:24] campaign. There's been a lot of chat about it on the timeline. But basically, a couple things have happened on the 22nd, a couple days ago, she mentioned digital assets. She said she wants to encourage innovative technologies like AI and digital assets while protecting our consumers and investors. That was on the 22nd. Everyone's like, oh my gosh, digital assets. That's me. Exactly. Okay, okay. Kamala is pro crypto. And then everyone else was like, she didn't say [12:54] of crypto, she said, that's not enough. - Yeah. - And there was some backlash to the excitement. And I kind of get it because it's very thin. - It was also like such pick me energy. [13:06] To me, I felt embarrassed. The fighting on the timeline about it. [13:09] the excitement on the timeline about it. Like, [13:12] It's [13:13] equivalent to like a guy who just like doesn't like you that much and then like [13:17] Maybe says your name one time. And then she's like, oh, my God, he's in love with me. That's the whole vibe I'm getting from, honestly, all of this. You know when you have a crush on someone and they're sending you texts and you're like every single word you're interpreting. Totally. Every single word. Just the spaces, the punctuation.

[13:34] Totally. [13:36] And... [13:37] They're not thinking about it at all. I haven't thought about you at all. That's what the timeline is doing right now to everything that Kamala is thinking about. I 100% agree. [13:45] And... [13:46] It's really cringe. [13:48] Anyway, that happened on the 22nd. She mentioned digital assets. [13:52] chaos ensues then [13:54] yesterday the 25th she said that she wants the u.s to [13:58] quote, remain dominant. [14:00] in blockchain, artificial intelligence, and other nascent technology industries. [14:05] And then she goes on to really kind of anchor that statement in and around American competitiveness. I'd say generally she is having trouble connecting with voters on her economic policy views. And so I think that the last couple days we've seen more from her on that because that has been like a market issue for her and her campaign. So that was the second statement. Okay. People are saying that... [14:30] It's still not enough. And the remain dominant piece is curious, because if she really meant that she would fire Gary Gensler now, I don't think. [14:42] She can. She can't. She can't. So that feels like a stupid thing to say. Stupid thing to say. Her mentioning blockchain by name, I think, is more certainly than digital assets. It feels better.

[15:12] he's listening to a voicemail that he like starts sleeping with his boss and like she's leaving a voicemail and she was like I missed you [15:18] And... [15:20] He's pausing it and having Pam, his secretary or not secretary, like the whatever the her role, you know her and having her dissect it. [15:30] And he's like, [15:31] She... [15:32] She missed me. [15:34] Missed me. And she was like, no, no, like she missed you. [15:38] And it's like, it's that. - Exactly. It's exactly that. - It's so embarrassing. - It's exactly that. It's so embarrassing. Anyway, blockchain mentioned, [15:47] Now, Democrats are all... [15:49] the ones who are pro-crypto and sort of outspoken on being pro-crypto, pro-web3 blockchain, whatever, are all taking this as an opportunity to go on all the news shows and say that this is her resetting on crypto. [16:02] And then another thing is Mark Cuban. [16:04] has come out a lot of love for mark cuban lately i love him you just there it is there's some more love for mark cuban i love him i think i need to get caught up on the mark cuban lore i never watched um me neither shark tank [16:18] no it's triggering to me the fundraising environment is not what i want to watch on a thursday evening at home anyway mark cuban has put out a statement that said that she does not want to do regulation by enforcement which is a big part of the issue that the crypto industry takes with the current administration garrigan's are certainly and by extension is what people are sort of [16:38] mapping onto her. So that feels positive. And it seems like he's in cahoots with her. Great. Yeah, I think he's like a pretty open Democrat.

[16:46] Yeah. And I think it's working. [16:48] with her team i think is that's been talked about so anyway that's what's going on would you vote for mark cuban if he was running for president [16:57] um there are a lot of there are a lot of things to consider that's such a political response i'm watching veep right now re-watching veep and there's a season where she has like this advisor woman who says nothing oh i love that character so much i love this character and she's always like well it could be [17:15] but it also couldn't be. And that was exactly the answer you just gave me. [17:22] - I like a non-politician. [17:24] I like the idea of a non-politician being president. Yeah, totally. I guess... [17:28] That's why people like Donald Trump, I guess. That is why people like Donald Trump. But I think that that's also why people are finding, well... [17:35] Tim wants to be so. [17:37] compelling compelling too is because he's not a career politician one more thing i'll put into the conversation here two actually two more things [17:45] first is that i saw an article i can't remember who wrote it if i if i could credit [17:51] You, I would. [17:52] know that [17:53] I always love to credit people, but I can't think of where it got this from. The article was talking about how [17:58] people are talking is the trump campaign specifically are talking about how crypto is [18:03] a voting block and you saw this what's his name the super problematic guy who talks about uh [18:09] The guy who said the one after a break. There's so many. There's so many. Could be anybody. The Masari guy who like went off. Oh, no.

[18:18] Ryan Silkus. Ryan Silkus. He got some press where he was talking about whatever 53 million [18:23] People in America own crypto. I remember this, yes. And I was, I took Hombridge. Hombridge? [18:27] Umbridge. Umbridge. Umbridge. We are umbraging this. Uh, he, he. Yeah, because I was like, these people are not single issue voters. That's a stupid thing to say. Totally. And so he's talking about how these 53 million people, they own crypto, they have some whatever. And to your point, they're, they're not single issue vote. That's a crazy stat to pull out. But. [18:48] the trump campaign in particular is definitely according to the crypto [18:53] voter. He went to the Bitcoin bar the other night, had that press moment. [18:58] I miss that. [18:59] Thank God. [19:00] Good for you. But what it does represent [19:03] And perhaps why he is leaning into it so much is that it represents a fundraising block more than it is a voting block. Oh, my God. How have I never thought about that? So smart. So smart. Why? Stupid. Stupid that I didn't even put that together. You got it. You got it. You got it. So it's like it's just dollars from these big entrenched players to try and get the politicians on side. [19:33] that's important to keep in mind and i want to end here with a conversation about the crypto national convention [19:41] Which... [19:42] really brings it home to what crypto people do care about in this election, which is betting.

[19:48] Ha ha ha ha. [19:50] Truer things have never been said. Truer things have never been said. [19:54] Where can we gamble? [19:56] So Christian National Convention was put together by the wacky guys at Pleaser Dow. And basically, it's just good fun. So don't take this too seriously. And don't think about it too much. It's really not that serious. And my advice to you is to not get offended by this. I would say that that would be a waste of your offense. [20:15] energy. So they set up this little microsite. And basically what you do is it's on chain, you buy votes to become a delegate. [20:26] - Okay. [20:27] Once you're a delegate, you can cast your vote for either Kamala Harris or Donald Trump. [20:31] Okay. [20:32] And so you basically put your... [20:35] money on one of the two candidates then there will be some period of time when that voting period is over and there will be a winner of the crypto national convention right now kamala harris is leading by 51 percent donald trump is 49 percent of the vote wow tight race tight race yeah it wasn't always so tight when i voted kamala was like [20:53] had like 70% and then when I looked later [20:56] in the day yesterday, Donald Trump had [20:59] gotten a ton of votes so it's been going back and forth so someone is going to win and then [21:04] Basically what the police or town guys are going to do is... [21:08] Take... [21:09] all the money that had been put into this and pool it together. Okay. And then place, uh, [21:17] Bet. [21:18] on Polymarket.

[21:19] in that big there's like one big huge poly market market that has like a billion dollars of money or something that's been staked in it that is about who's going to win the presidential election and so they're going to basically pull the funds of everyone who voted and put it into okay the uh the poly market bet based on whoever wins and then [21:41] And whatever is going to happen is going to happen. And if we all made the right bet, you'll get paid out. You get paid out in this. There's a tokenized American token that they're shipping. So really fun. Really fun. I love that. I love that. I need to jump on in. You should jump in. Yeah. It feels kind of like a Constitution down moment. [22:00] Okay, so fun. I love it. Very fun. And it's the world's first tokenized polymarket bet and a little convoluted, but also... [22:12] What's not in crypto? [22:14] *Gasp* [22:18] We have Asta Lee, the CTO and co-founder of Privy, which is privacy first authentication for Web3. Asta is a software engineer. I was snooping on your bio here and you previously were at Uber and Aurora, which is basically like self-driving car technology. Am I right? [22:40] Yeah. Okay, great. At Privy, I saw a stat 7.5 million [22:46] Users. [22:47] have come through the Privy tours at some point or another. More at this point. More at this point. That's crazy. That's insane scale that chat would do. We pray for here at Crypto. Yeah, exactly. So we're going to talk about what Privy is, but just to name check a few of your partners here, Privy powers the login flows for OpenSea, Zora, DYDX, Blackbird, Receipts,

[23:12] so many of the [23:13] the cool guys in cryptos. So really excited to chat with you. [23:17] Yeah, I appreciate it. [23:19] We want to start with talking about, you know, there's this big conversation right now around, and there has been since honestly I started working in crypto around onboarding. There's so much over indexing, I think, around infrastructure conversations. And obviously we at Boys Club and a lot of the people who listen to this podcast think a lot about consumer applications and how real people are going to use this technology. Tell us a little bit about how that relates to the work that you do at Privy. [23:44] Yeah, yeah. I think there's [23:45] a few parts of that that I'll break down, but one of them is definitely that onboarding piece. And I think infrastructure and onboarding [23:56] sort of design and technology go hand in hand to enable these amazing products that just could have never existed before. So I think the, you know, the [24:05] the infra advances that we've seen, whether it's in L2s or smart accounts or embedded wallets, they go hand in hand with design and with, I think, the creativity that comes with [24:16] being able to come up with new consumer experiences and things like that i've seen this like [24:21] explosion of consumer applications that just, it just wasn't the case, you know, three years ago that things looked like this. So I think we have been a part of a wave that's continuing to grow. I got into this space because I [24:36] I wanted to work on privacy and digital identity and really, really cool stuff is happening around that in Web3.

[24:45] decentralized identity stuff is powering why people are able to put your driver's licenses on mobile devices. And those advances in digital identity are also driven by what people are thinking about in the crypto space. This is like a nascent industry where people care about privacy in a big way. People care about [25:06] ownership, [25:07] and about privacy in ways that are ahead of the curve. And so if I want to make a difference here, this is the space I'm going to build in. And so this is a long way of saying like, [25:16] This is why I care about crypto onboarding, because I think when you onboard folks to crypto, you [25:22] change the way people think about who actually owns your data, who actually owns your money. So that's like kind of my worldview that brings me to here. So those are like a bunch of different threads on [25:32] how I think about the massive picture around onboarding into the space. You're speaking to the opportunity around Web3 and identity, but I think for a lot of people who aren't fluent in the space, that keeps them out. And so talk to us about how Privy is solving for that and how it makes it easier for these [25:50] for these dApps to solve for login. Tell us a little bit about how it works [25:55] Yeah, Privy is the onboarding product that makes sure everybody can access products built on crypto rails. And that's [26:05] built on a few different components. One is login, where users can log in with an account that's familiar to them. [26:14] for example, an email or social login or even a wallet. And through that login,

[26:19] unlock the entire functionality of web-free space and products built on this infra. The core part of that is key management infrastructure, which is that once you have authenticated, once you have logged in with, say, your email, Privy [26:35] builds key management infrastructure so that you have access to your own cryptographic keys. And [26:45] basis for a wallet that you can use to interact with various blockchains and anything else that you need a crypto wallet to be able to do and that's [26:54] embedded into the product that you're trying to use. And that's why we call it embedded wallets. And there's a story around like, [27:01] all the different names that we thought about using that weren't embedded wallets when we finally landed on embedded wallets. But we call it embedded wallets because it's an account, it's a wallet. [27:13] that you own that's deeply embedded with a product experience. And I think this mentality is really different and maybe even a little more controversial, especially in the beginning, to think about a product first mindset as opposed to a wallet mindset. And this wallet is like embedded into a product as opposed to a user having to figure out what a wallet is, onboard onto it, and then bring it to a product. And so I think the fact that we're [27:40] really thinking about onboarding from a product first mindset is one of the things that's like really, really special. So [27:47] I have what is potentially a dumb question.

[27:49] Is that the same thing as account abstraction or is that a different thing? [27:53] Account abstraction basically makes account logic programmable by putting it on chain via a smart contract and it Let's you do some really cool things. It lets it changes how you sign for things It lets an application pay for gas on behalf of users and lets you batch transactions and it adds like a ton of programmable functionality to your on-chain account and so a lot of folks use a [28:20] Privy in conjunction with account abstraction in order to provision these smart contract wallets for their users where there's a smart contract that's defining the on-chain account and there's Privy which serves as the onboarding flow and the signer for the smart contract wallet. So with Privy you log in with your email or maybe you log in with [28:44] with Twitter or whatever account is familiar to your users. And the cryptographic key that's provisioned to the user is the signer on a smart contract account. And then that smart contract account is like [28:58] what [28:59] owns assets and what makes transfers. [29:02] I'd love to zoom out a little bit and [29:05] get your perspective on the debate, which I see taking place every once in a while on the timeline, which is around this idea of [29:13] And I don't know if it's exactly related to account abstraction, but it's basically the idea that there are some people that think that crypto should be fully abstracted away into the into the stack and that we'll get to a point.

[29:24] where people don't even know they're using crypto and that that's an ideal state because that's [29:29] it's just about then at that point building great products that people love to use and if crypto enables it, that's great. And so that's kind of one side of the debate. And then the other side are people who think that, no, it's actually really important that people understand [29:42] when they're setting up a self-custodial wallet, how that is really different than their other wallet experiences or traditional [29:50] banking and that we shouldn't abstract that difference away because it's honestly a little bit irresponsible because those people will then be in [29:58] engaging with this thing [30:00] thinking it's something that it isn't, where self custody actually has a tremendous amount of responsibility that you need to understand in order to be able to use it safely. And so I'm wondering sort of where you sit between the two. [30:14] Yeah, I think both camps [30:16] are [30:17] right at the end of the day. I think [30:20] The majority of people will onboard to digital ownership without even knowing it. [30:28] in the future, in five years, they won't know that they have wallets. And in fact, right now, if you download one of our customers as Blackbird, if you download the Blackbird app, it's not in your face. You don't know that you now own a crypto wallet. And I think [30:40] those experiences are going to be the [30:44] majority of what consumer products that are built on crypto rails end up looking like, because they're familiar, they're easy to use. At the same time, [30:53] I think that self-custody and specifically account ownership is the reason why I'm here and is the reason why

[31:01] why a lot of us are really excited about the ecosystem and the kinds of products that can be built. And in fact, some of these products, like... [31:09] don't get to exist in the way that they do without this core notion of self-custody. And so I think it's less of like an either or and more like what kinds of products are you trying to build? And is self-custody where it's front and center and something that a user needs to understand? For instance, if they're taking this wallet with them into many other places, they have to understand the security implications. [31:39] to know not to engage with malicious products or things like that. That's a different type of product and that's a different experience, maybe for a different user set. So I think it's like both are going to be important at the end of the day and we're not going to have crypto without both. [31:57] Yeah, I think just to like play devil's advocate a bit, because I actually don't, hearing you talk about sort of both sides, I'm like, I actually think I agree. And I see the value of both. But I think just to [32:08] sort of push on a little bit what the worst case scenario would be for someone like a Blackbird. I don't know exactly how their app works, but you could [32:16] see a scenario where [32:19] if there's some wallet and token experience that's built into that app, and there's some accident or there's some malicious bad actor that where the tokens get drained or you

[32:32] whatever, there's so many different things that can happen that would like make you lose access to your tokens or you accidentally send tokens elsewhere and like, [32:40] that [32:41] There's no one to call to change that. And we all know that because we're here. But for someone who is coming in through one of these more consumer... [32:51] apps that are designed explicitly to have the crypto be abstracted away. [32:56] there's some risk in that for that for those users who don't fully understand, like the world in which they're [33:01] operating and so I think like that gives me a little bit of pause when I'm thinking about that side of it [33:06] Yeah, I... [33:07] I think that [33:08] Part of it is about what type of [33:12] product is being built and the rails that are set around it. So I think a lot of [33:16] gaming experiences where you are dropped into [33:20] a game and you just want to get started and play, the fact that there is a wallet is secondary to the fact that you're having fun. And also the items that you're receiving in the game, they're [33:35] I think scoped to that game and valuable in that context. And bringing in the friction of educating the user about [33:44] I think relative nuance of like, this is an on-chain item or an on-chain asset compared to any typical gaming experience is friction that might take away from that initial gameplay. So I think that there's like a trade-off there where you're like, "Well, I kind of just want to focus on the game."

[34:03] I'll get compounding value out of playing this game as a secondary benefit. And that's different than something that's like, [34:11] there to track your retirement plan. [34:14] account. The user experience and security features and etc. and like safety rails around [34:21] what is needed at that scale would look really different. And I think that the [34:25] Problem... [34:26] comes when people try to equate the two. They say like a crypto wallet is a crypto wallet, but actually people are trying to use crypto wallets [34:33] in a massive variety of ways. And it's about customizing the experience and building rails for the specific experience. [34:40] That's interesting. I feel like what I'm hearing from you is that there's a responsibility on the designer of the product or in this industry. [34:47] example the designer of the game or whatever it may be to think about the digital assets that your consumer is engaging with and what level of responsibility [34:56] is it [34:57] for the designer of the game or the product designer to have an understanding of how much that consumer needs to be educated on what those assets are. And that that's as people are integrating privy, like thinking about how that all works, which makes a ton of sense. Yeah, it's one part education, one part configuration. I want to end with a fun question. What are some of your favorite products that you're seeing in this space right now? [35:20] Yeah, oh, there's so many. I've been really excited about Zora's new consumer app launch. I think it's really fun from just a human point of view, but it's also really interesting technically in terms of what's going on under the hood. And one thing I'll highlight there is that it's a mobile app.

[35:41] And if you think about where consumers are, consumers are [35:46] all on mobile, they're predominantly on mobile, and [35:49] that's how they're accessing [35:51] the internet these days. But crypto is not really on mobile. We all flirted with PWAs for a while. And I think, you know, I think there's still some really cool projects being built on PWAs, but PWAs do have technical disadvantages compared to native mobile apps. And I'm really excited to continue to support this wave of mobile apps that are going to be super consumer-centric and meet those users where they are on mobile. So that's like a... [36:18] very exciting technical trend for me. I'm also excited about a lot of games that are in gaming collaborations, whether this is Proof of Play's Pirate Nation or B3 in Basement, the idea of being able to play crypto games based on crypto infra or have these in-game assets on crypto that you can then take with you into another game. It's so cool. And then there's other products like I think [36:48] So what they let you do is they let you vault physical trading cards and then be able to take digital transactions on what were previously physical goods that you had to ship across the country every single time you wanted to send it to somebody. And this... [37:03] represents a very exciting use case of crypto, which is digitizing physical assets and being able to take the incredible benefits of digital goods and apply them to things that previously couldn't benefit with, you know, things like real estate, things like art, things like trading cards or other other physical goods. So having that like lightning speed transaction, having fractionalization, like all that stuff is really exciting to me, too. I'm going to start selling my kids Pokemon cards.

[37:30] so thank you so much this is so interesting and just appreciate your insight so much and yeah we're a huge fan of of the privy team thanks for coming on [37:42] For sure. Thank you.