Ep. 108: Interview - Mindy Seu and The Cyberfeminism Index

[00:01] Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. Just Boys Club. [00:19] - Hi. - Hey. [00:20] How's it going? It's going great. We are recovering from Art Basel and from our party, our scene launch. I saw a DM from somebody that was like, hey, idea here, an hour long episode with all the highlights from Art Basel. And I was like, oh man, I don't know if I got that in me. [00:37] My resting heart rate is still not back to normal. [00:41] according to my aura ring are you serious serious oh my god my aura ring is like i don't know what happened last week but it can't you were broken you broke we had the uh the launch of our zine if you have not been on social media at all because we've been posting about it a lot and incessantly so annoying sorry much maybe it's too much but thank you we sold out which was huge and so thank you to everybody who bought a zine and who supported this project it really means a lot [01:11] you we love you so much more on that and art basil and feelings on all of it this friday we're going to have a longer episode on that so stay tuned watch this space [01:24] But today we had such an incredible interview with Mindy Su. She is the author of the Cyber Feminism Index. It is an incredible book. She is such a beautiful person. Just really kind. I was just like, I love this woman and was really generous with her time and her wisdom. And it was a great interview.

[01:48] It really was. The Cyber Feminism Index is a collection of works that looks at feminism and technology and how the two interact across lots of disciplines, mediums, formats, cultures, regions. It's really incredible what she's done to to bring it together into a collection. And. [02:10] She is just so lovely and made the conversation. You and I were both really nervous about it. This is the second time in two weeks we found ourselves in an intellectual academic conversation. Totally over our skis. If someone was like, describe yourself. You have a hundred words to describe yourself. [02:28] intellectual, an intellectual or an academic would not make it anywhere near. No, no, no, no, it would not. It would not come close. So we've, yeah, now been in this space twice. And, but I will say that she is. [02:45] really accessible and has a gift at translating these really heady concepts into a [02:52] uh, [02:53] stuff that you can understand. And so eloquently put. [03:01] Also two feelings that came up for me. One, I want to go back to school and have this woman be my professor. What a gift all of her students have under her tutelage. And then the second thing that I thought was, wow, I actually love having academics on the podcast because they're so

[03:23] Every thought goes into this next layer. And when you're editing a podcast, I can't tell you how many people are not thoughtful with their words. So as I was listening, I was thinking... [03:36] I want to be more like this where every word has a purpose and I'm thoughtful about it. And two, this is going to be a breeze to edit. [03:44] What a great episode. So her work is super important and very, very impressive. There is a physical book of the cyber feminism index, and then also an online version that continues to live on. You can actually submit different works that are at this intersection of net thinking, cyber thinking and feminism. And we'll put that link in the, in the bio, we'll hit the bio with the link as well as a way to buy her book, which I highly recommend it's on my coffee [04:14] It's beautiful. And I am so grateful that she responded to my cold email to come talk on this podcast. So give it a listen. [04:44] Sign up in just a few minutes and see what crypto can be.

[05:00] On today's podcast, we have Mindy Su, designer, technologist, educator. She's a professor at Rutgers University, a critic at Yale School of Art, and the author of the Cyber Feminism Index, which we're really excited to talk about today. [05:15] Welcome to the show, Mindy. Thank you so much, Dina and Natasha. Happy to be here. We're so excited. I first came across your book in a very cool bookstore in Mexico City. And I was like, what is this? It's so beautiful. It's so cool. Who is this person? And I've heard... [05:31] It described as many different things. The Cyber Feminine Index compiles three decades of online activism and net art, and [05:38] It's been referred to as a textbook, an index, a collaborative publication, a canon, a conceptual art piece, a resource, the list goes on and on and on. So I'd love to start with you just talking about it as its creator. [05:50] What is this book to you? [05:52] Yeah, well, I think that list really covers a lot of angles. I think I've kind of been describing it as [06:00] kind of a pseudo-encyclopedia of online net art and online activism from the past three decades. From 1991, from when cyberfeminism was coined, [06:11] till the book ends in 2020 just for some parameters, but the online index will grow in perpetuity. [06:18] But was the bookstore you saw it at Casa Bosque? [06:21] Yes. Yeah. That bookstore, that was the best book. [06:25] Well, I won't say the best. We've had some great ones. From this book tour, [06:30] That event was rowdy. It was so fun. It really had like this punk ethos that maybe isn't quite possible in a more like...

[06:38] museum or institutional setting. So that one was a good core memory for me. [06:44] That's awesome. So Mindy, I've seen you described as an archivist, and I see that reflected in this book. How would you describe sort of the through line that connects all of these pieces that you have compiled into the Cyber Feminism Index? Yeah, well, I think the term archivist or archivist. I'm sorry if I pronounce it wrong. That's totally fine. I've always said archivist. I actually have no idea how it's pronounced. [07:14] sounds fancier. So let's go with that. I try not to use that word, actually, because I have a lot of friends with like archival science and library science degrees. And it really is like a craft. And [07:27] practice that you have to [07:30] learn and spend a lot of time devoting your life to. But that said, I do think I'm, let's say, an archival enthusiast, definitely a list maker indexer. But some of the through lines in Cyberfeminism Index [07:44] It really feels quite porous and allows for a lot of mutations. So [07:50] You can think about this in terms of [07:52] the different taxonomies that's underneath the cyberfeminism name, which I call like a very imperfect umbrella term, [08:01] Examples of these might be [08:03] Laborio Kubonic's Xeno Feminism or Legacy Russell's Glitch Feminism,

[08:09] There's also net femis in Korea or Latin American hack feministas. [08:15] So those are all terms and titles that are [08:18] quite nebulous and also quite porous. But in terms of media types, it also gathers things like [08:23] Net art pieces, hacker spaces, syllabi, conferences, manifestos, computational poetry, like it really feels quite expansive. [08:33] Which I think is great because it shows like all these different forms in which activism can take place and all the different media types that it embraces. [08:42] It reminds me of this meme format that I really like. Womanhood is a spectrum and it like has all these different like versions of what it's like to be a woman. Absolutely. And it's sort of like cyber feminism is a spectrum. And your book is sort of a manifestation of that, which is great. It started as a spreadsheet and I'm obsessed with this as an origin story because I think it really speaks to. [09:04] the collaborative ethos of publications. So would love to hear more about that evolution and how it started originally. [09:12] Yeah, when I was first working on this project, [09:16] I think with past projects, I've always had a clear conception of what the end result might be, and I just make different steps towards making that happen. [09:25] But in this case... [09:27] I had actually a lot of anxiety that I didn't have like a capital P project in mind. [09:32] And I was really just creating a bibliography for myself. So I was collecting... [09:37] Uh, [09:38] academic articles and the spreadsheet, also connecting it to practice oriented things like

[09:45] my friends, Nut Art Works or [09:47] internet history classes and things like this. [09:50] And I actually found that there was so much resonance between things like [09:56] an experimental net art piece alongside internet policy, let's say. [10:01] They were just coming at it from two separate disciplines. But the goal was always the same. [10:07] So when I put this spreadsheet online, it was really just meant to ask people, [10:12] my Twitter or Instagram community, what's missing from this? Can anything be amended or edited? [10:20] And from there, it naturally became crowd sourced, [10:24] kind of snowballed into a larger project that was never really the intention. [10:28] So I think that actually gave me a lot of [10:31] relief in thinking about maybe future projects. Cause it's like, if you really do something that you feel like you would personally use, [10:39] regardless of the output, it still feels like a practical tool or like a usable device. So that definitely gave me a lot of reassurance. [10:46] What I like about your approach in both the origin and how the index lives today is that my understanding is that you have the index lives online. It's kind of a living document. [10:59] And you also have this, I think, 600 page book that is a physical, very physical thing that exists in the real world. There's an interesting and I think I heard you talk about this in an interview. I'm not quite sure where, but you were talking about how. [11:12] you know, it's incredible to have this sort of living document and living index of all of this work, but that

[11:18] It's also really important to bring it into the physical world, because who knows what could happen with all of these links and publications and things. [11:26] and they're in the cloud and maybe someone acquires that company and the cloud disappears and then we're left with nothing. And so I think it's really beautiful that you brought it into the physical world as well. Well, I think that's kind of spot on, like because I've worked primarily with interactive media for my entire career. [11:44] no matter what decisions you make to try to make something really durable online, [11:49] They just generally tend to have a shorter lifespan. So my collaborator, Angelina Meinsler, and I actually made a lot of intentional decisions for the front end and the back end to make the website easier. [12:01] have a longer lifespan, [12:03] But even with all the things that you mentioned, generally websites have a shorter length. [12:09] durational span than books. [12:13] Um, [12:14] So, [12:15] The reason to print it was for a few reasons. [12:19] First, it kind of felt like a citational hack. [12:24] And like a preservational hack. So [12:28] Initially, I was going to self-publish this, and everyone told me, "Do not do that. It's so much work." So I went with a "legitimate publisher," Inventory Press. [12:39] And with them, we are able to make sure there's an ISBN on the back, which means that this book is now in the Library of Congress. [12:47] So that means if anything happens to the online site,

[12:50] the book and all of those copies of the entries will at least have [12:56] some perpetuity because it's part of [12:59] a quote unquote forever institution. [13:01] These are things like museums, [13:04] libraries, et cetera, that have built into its structure [13:08] generational preservational transfer. [13:12] So that means if I, [13:13] pass or the project goes down or et cetera. [13:17] the book and its contents will kind of live on for generations. [13:21] In addition to that, [13:22] because it was a citational hack, I think because I've written so many papers, [13:28] Also, I've done my fair share of Wikipedia editing, [13:31] When you are trying to cite something on Wikipedia, for example, things are weighted differently depending on what you're citing. So you need secondary sources, not primary sources. [13:42] Secondary sources are weighted depending on what medium it's published on. So [13:48] because of archaic methods, [13:50] Typically, [13:51] Things in printed volumes are weighted [13:53] higher than things on ephemeral volumes, like art pieces, websites, et cetera. [13:59] So this was also a way to create 703 secondary sources in print for a lot of things that didn't have many sites to begin with. So just really trying to think about in a strategic way, what are some hacks that we can put into place to make this book work? [14:15] really like, [14:16] feel as hefty as it needs to be, and fortify as many different projects as possible.

[14:23] Yeah, there's something like really durable about the way that you're describing it. And I love that you're like, I'm doing it for Wikipedia. I'm doing it for the Wikipedia. It's great. So I want to talk a little bit about the definition of cyber feminism. I've heard some interviews of you talking about cyber feminism. [14:41] how you sort of need to break this word down and dig into different aspects of the word and that Norbert Weiner's 1940s definition of cybernetics, like being like this real sort of foundation for the rest of how you've defined it. So I love a little history lesson into sort of that initial definition and then your perspective of the evolution of that. Yeah, I mean, that's already a great summary. One, [15:07] Cybernetics emerged in the 1940s. In the most simple one-liner, cybernetics proposes that [15:15] Not only are you impacting a system, [15:18] that system is also impacting you. So it's this constant feedback loop. [15:22] It's not like one thing is impacting an individual, it's that both are impacting each other. [15:28] So, [15:30] Forty years later, the prefix cyber then gets fixed to cyberspace in William Gibson's science fiction novel Neuromancer. [15:39] And this book was important for a lot of reasons. It kind of predicted these sensory networked online landscapes that are very much in conversation today, like the metaverse, virtual realities, etc., [15:51] But Gibson's cyberspace was also very characterized by the male gaze. You have fembots and cyber babes and,

[16:00] depictions of women as robots or assistants, [16:03] So, [16:04] When cyber was then fixed to feminism in 1991 by the Australian art collective VNS Matrix, [16:11] and later by the British cultural theorist Sadie Plante, [16:14] It was almost a joke. They invented it as like an oxymoron, but later it became interpreted as a provocation. [16:24] Right? Like how could [16:26] feminists, marginalized communities, women, [16:29] think about what cyberspace could be. [16:32] And it became this call to action that led to all these other spider webs. [16:37] and all the different branches that I [16:40] mentioned a few of them earlier. So I think the [16:44] that's a huge introduction for maybe my definition of cyber feminism, which is [16:50] You have to disseminate feminism through online or digital channels. [16:55] while simultaneously being critical of the technology that you're using. [17:00] So... [17:02] if we use like a hashtag activist in the example, [17:05] A few people submitted #MeToo to the index. [17:09] But it's not, we didn't include it. [17:11] And it's because while it does disseminate feminism through social media, [17:16] it's not actually being critical of any technology. [17:19] It uses technology, but there's no technocriticism. [17:22] Whereas something like a hashtag GamerGate [17:25] is simultaneously [17:27] disseminating feminism through online channels, but it's also being very critical of a very male-dominated hegemonic

[17:35] gaming industry, [17:38] So this felt like a good example of [17:40] something that kind of encapsulates both. [17:43] And of course, this is quite porous depending on region or time period, but for the most part, [17:48] we try to make sure each project in the index has these two parts. [17:52] That's fascinating. I'm curious hearing you talk about it. Well, first of all, I think your description of the science fiction male gaze of women in those spaces and assistants and objects and fembots and [18:08] Honestly, I wonder what you think about Siri and Alexa, and maybe we can get into that in a minute. But I'm curious if the cyber feminist view... [18:19] is [18:20] is one that's optimistic or is one that's pessimistic like is there is there a utopia possible or is it quite dystopian in hearing you talk I know that you seem to have a lot of space for sort of mutating definitions and things to have branches so I imagine that your answer probably won't be quite so black and white but I'm curious what that brings up for you yeah I think that's [18:43] What I like about the space is there aren't clear parameters and it's not asking people to have a unified vision. [18:52] It's trying to mix in the index. We actually position... [18:56] differing opinions and projects right next to each other, because we want there to feel like there's that kind of discourse on the page. But in terms of utopia or dystopia, some projects are very utopic. Some projects are very dystopic. Of course, many have this blurriness in between.

[19:14] Generally, I don't like to think of utopia as a space because... [19:20] these things, this just will never happen. [19:23] I prefer to think about utopic principles that might be inserted into existing systems that we have. [19:29] things like open borders, universal access to knowledge, things like this. [19:33] Um... [19:34] These are very, very utopic, but are still [19:38] It doesn't require the denigration or burn of everything that we currently have because... [19:45] It just makes these types of... [19:46] types of things infusible. But in terms of like Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Eliza, Bina 48, like if you go back in history, [19:56] All of these are examples of AIs or assistants that are modeled after feminized figures. [20:04] Right. So there's actually this collective in L.A. called Feminist AI. [20:08] that questions like, [20:10] Siri claims it doesn't have gender, but it sounds like a girl. [20:13] Right. Like, what are we doing when a lot of these smart assistants [20:18] are [20:18] modeled after feminized figures, [20:21] How is that subconsciously training the people who use these tools to think about who is meant to be assisting whom? [20:27] So this moves into very complicated territory. [20:32] There's also studies of what voice activation does in larger settings. So... [20:38] in subway cars or... [20:41] for fire alarms and larger buildings.

[20:45] they've done studies where if the voice saying that you're in danger is [20:50] a feminized voice versus a masculine voice [20:54] People respond differently. People vacate at different speeds, if at all. [20:59] So it really goes to show the kind of impacts that [21:02] these subconscious conditions that our society produces has on [21:07] people who [21:09] live in very different gendered spaces. [21:12] Wow. I used to work at this company and I helped manage some of the support team. And part of what we did was change the names to masculine sounding names because people were nicer to you if you had a male name as opposed to a female name in customer service settings. So it's depressing. It's depressing, but it's a reality. So Boys Club is obviously tongue in cheek and it's mostly women. And we've been asked a lot to talk about us as feminists and like a feminist movement in Web3. [21:42] every [21:43] we've basically never done it because feminism is such a loaded word in 2023. [21:51] they don't feel represented or sense of belonging in calling themselves a feminist or being a part of a feminist organization. [21:58] I... [21:59] Love to hear from you. [22:01] naming this book so intentionally and that word having [22:06] maybe a very different meaning for people today than it did maybe 20 years ago. What was the decision around that? How did you come to that conclusion? Yeah, I actually was so intrigued when I...

[22:17] for Discovered Boys Club because it really felt reminiscent of the old Boys Network. [22:23] which is one of the first cyber feminist groups in the late 90s. And they did the same thing, right? [22:28] In their manifesto, they write about how when you hear Old Boys Network, it feels like a coalition of men, but they're trying to reframe it so it sounds like a cyber feminist virus. [22:39] Right. Like it's a way to get in to other institutions. I love that. And that's kind of what you're doing with this subversion with the name like Boys Club. Right. I also think Boys Club is really important because often when we hear about women's groups, they're always called girls. [22:56] Girls with multiple Ss, girls with Zs, girls with whatever. But girls not women, so that can be unpacked too. I agree with you. Feminism and the term feminist is so contentious. [23:08] and understandably so. Historically in the U.S. [23:12] It's been extremely exclusionary. [23:15] there was an entire wave devoted to intersectionalism because this didn't exist in earlier waves of feminism. So this is actually like a really, [23:25] complicated choice when we were thinking of the title because [23:31] In theory, [23:33] The book is actually more expansive. It's technically techno-feminist because it incorporates a lot of different technologies, not just browser-based works. [23:42] But for the feminist, [23:43] root word [23:44] We were also thinking womanist. Should we use feminist, but use some sort of glyph to indicate that it's different?

[23:52] And there were all these considerations, but... [23:55] Ultimately, we [23:56] I chose to keep cyber feminist because it felt like it was referring to a specific historical legacy. [24:04] And also trying to make clear that that legacy had mutated a lot since then. [24:10] which is why when I see people now using this word in 2023, [24:15] I'm like, I hope you can reclaim it. Like, I think that... [24:19] Regardless of what title you're using, as long as you can identify what your key references are, [24:25] It doesn't have to be the canonical figures that we've been taught to really embrace. [24:30] It doesn't have to be Judith Butler or Donna Haraway. [24:33] It can be whomever [24:34] feels like it's creating the right space for you and your community. [24:38] And this is why I also really embrace the development of new words altogether. [24:43] In the introduction of the book, I try to list all the different through lines that have emerged [24:48] even if they [24:49] claim that there's no connection with cyberfeminism, [24:53] Thematically, I feel like there is. So this kind of blend is just a way to create some sort of complex discourse between them. [25:00] I don't actually necessarily think it means that you have a unified front. [25:05] I just think it means that [25:07] The unity comes from [25:09] trying to push back against [25:12] a larger hegemony or system that impacts all of us. And there are different ways of doing that. This conversation reminds me last week on the podcast we had on Ruby Tullow, you may know, academic, and he came on with Reggie James, and they were explaining we were talking about EAC.

[25:28] the effective accelerationist movement. [25:31] And they're incredible, both so smart. And it was a conversation about capitalism and... [25:37] technology and the marriage of the two. And in your in the introduction in your book, it's underscored that cyber feminism is an opportunity to sort of critique that space into, I suppose, like push back against some assumptions and in digital capitalism. [25:51] I am wondering your take on... [25:54] the EAC ideology and how it relates to cyberfeminism. [25:58] That might be a longer podcast episode. Well, okay. Well, historically, the accelerationist movement, there are a lot of different strands of this too, right? Like Aria Dean wrote this great essay about black accelerationism. Even recently, I was having a conversation with... [26:16] A psychoanalyst named Jameson Webster. [26:19] who often contributes to our forum. [26:21] But about Sam Altman, the [26:23] acceleration of CEO of OpenAI. [26:26] So, [26:27] Are these things [26:28] good or bad? [26:30] Well, I don't know. I think that like it really depends on the ethos of the person or the people kind of pushing it forward. [26:39] It really depends on what we are trying to accelerate. I think oftentimes the PDOOM of these things is so grim, the probability of doom. And I do often think that people who push forward these accelerationist notions have a very, very low PDOOM and allows for these very impulsive...

[27:00] move fast and break things types of decisions, but [27:04] I generally like to keep an open mind and try to understand like the subtleties between the impulses or reasons why people are trying to [27:14] execute some of these decisions and how they get huge groups of people to [27:19] to support these things. So I don't know, it's complex. [27:23] It is. I want to say, coming off of the back of the podcast that we did with them last week, I do think there's something really optimistic about... [27:30] the accelerationist view that I like and I'm attracted to [27:35] And then, [27:36] It was the next day or something and I saw the, I don't know if you saw the AI video [27:41] thing that was just launched where you can basically just take a photo of anyone and like do a really minor like training on their movements and you can create just totally new video based on very little training input. [27:55] And of course, the first thing that comes to mind is [27:58] revenge porn and next level deep fakes. And also... [28:03] like children being harmed in that and women and there being a disproportionate impact on [28:09] women and probably children as well. And so I'm trying to just like, [28:14] balance what I love technology and I love the optimism around those types of conversations, but then being really confronted with like the brass tacks of what that means to be an accelerationist and like what you need to be at peace with is so hard. [28:27] and [28:28] I don't know how to balance it. You know, I think this is the difficult part, right? Like there will always be a complicated entanglement between theory and practice.

[28:39] So a lot of the people who hold accelerationist beliefs, it is very theory oriented, right? They have a utopic vision of what's possible and they're going to move towards it as quickly as possible. [28:49] But in doing so, this leads to a lot of practice-oriented things that will impact people outside of their purview, because it's outside of the people that they're taught to care about. [28:58] or taught to even consider. [29:00] Um, [29:01] Anna Singh writes about this, right? With a lot of these tech companies and tech CEOs, the ethos has been, [29:08] move fast and break things. [29:10] And she posits, [29:12] What would it be like if instead of moving fast and breaking things, we slowed down and just looked around? [29:18] Like if we looked around, we would see so many resources already at our disposal that people have been using for generations. [29:25] But instead, we're being taught to just look forward and have these kind of linear pathways [29:30] And that's just really not how [29:32] Well, up till late, evolution has worked. So, yeah. There is a lot of complexity there. [29:39] So we've touched on AI a little bit. I want to touch on crypto for a second and just get your take A. [29:47] have been drawn to... [29:49] crypto and web three and what brought me into this industry was really this idea that there's an opening and a design opportunity for this new internet that it's still nascent and with the rails that have been created there is this opportunity for a more [30:03] equitable, more owned internet across many different types of people. And

[30:09] in reviewing some of your work and some of the works in your book. [30:13] that promise has sort of been made many times in many different texts and manifestos and canons throughout history. And so... [30:20] in your work and in looking and understanding and spending time with a lot of these techs. [30:25] I [30:27] would love to hear from you. [30:28] If you have any takeaways from different moments in history where maybe that was promised and it failed or... [30:34] It was promised and we moved the needle a little bit in these different moments where that was the energy or promise of the moment. Yeah, I think what's tricky about this is it's often promised and it's easy to say that [30:48] those movements failed. [30:50] But I think that when flipping through this book, [30:52] It gives me a lot of hope because [30:55] even if we feel like not that much has been accomplished, when we look at all the different examples of things that have been accomplished, [31:02] even if that led to one step forward, two steps back, or some version of this, [31:07] There have been so many groups around the world for so many years [31:11] who have made a lot of legislation [31:14] or grassroots activism possible. [31:16] And this is really exciting and I think it's important to pay dues to them. [31:19] So [31:20] even in like the crypto space. [31:22] some of the first people to ship usable products, not speculative products on [31:30] or using blockchain were sex workers. [31:33] Right? If you think of like Spank Chain and other sex worker owned and operated cryptocurrencies, [31:38] sex workers were some of the first people to introduce advertising onto tube sites and like

[31:45] make messaging better because they wanted to communicate with their clients. Like, and these are all things that we use, but it's not, [31:51] officially part of the record of internet history, [31:55] so it's left to oral histories or other markers like these. I think it's really [32:00] tricky with Web3 because [32:03] I really believe that it's not really about a tool or platform. [32:08] But-- [32:08] rather how it's used. [32:10] And... [32:11] While the potentials of the space really come from it being extremely new, if the immediate impulse or influx of users onto these types of platforms happen to be the same type of people, [32:25] who were [32:26] part of the influx of Web 2, let's say, or [32:30] however you want to describe the waves, it's almost bound to repeat itself in different forms. [32:36] Right. [32:37] That said, when you see things like Unicorn Dough, [32:40] This is really exciting because their whole ethos is [32:44] "Well, we're gonna make a DAO for queer people, and [32:48] not only are we going to support all the people who are part of the DAO, we're also going to have different fundraising efforts for reproductive rights, etc. [32:56] This type of thing is less possible. [32:58] when you're using a GoFundMe, let's say. [33:02] So I do think there are a lot of rich examples [33:05] But I do think that I have a lot of weariness about thinking [33:10] something will change just because it's new and the [33:13] records said it would be groundbreaking because we've seen that rhetoric a lot.

[33:19] Yeah. [33:20] Okay, so closing up here, you are a... [33:24] collector. You're a list maker, as you said. [33:27] And faced with the endless scroll of the internet, I'm curious how you organize the [33:35] your digital life. Like, [33:37] We're deeply online, but I'd say our sort of experience of it is probably more chaotic than yours. Our digital hygiene is atrocious. Couldn't be worse. I'm wondering how you manage it and if you ever get like the overwhelm with the volume of inbound information. [33:54] or if you have made peace with it in some way. Okay, well, I definitely doom scroll. I'm definitely overwhelmed. [34:00] I do think that [34:02] I have clear methods for how I save and store and organize things. [34:07] I don't think it's the most elegant because [34:10] I'm not using like crazy software or anything, but it has become so much of a habit that it's something that I default to. So I'll give an example of like when I encounter something online that's part of a theme that I think [34:23] is resonant. [34:24] Like, [34:25] digital gifts. [34:26] or AI or something like this, [34:29] I have [34:30] a very, very long Google Doc [34:33] of different topics like these, where I add either direct quotes, links, [34:38] if a friend says something in passing that I think is connected to AI, then I'll make a note and add their name. [34:44] Just so later, if I'm asked to write a paper about AI, [34:48] then it's all in one place.

[34:50] with clear citations and context. [34:53] because I found that if I'm just dumping links [34:57] and I keep it in my browser, or if I'm just adding them to Arena or something, [35:02] Then... [35:04] It'll be hard for me to remember why I wanted to save it in the first place. [35:07] So I'd rather do like, [35:09] A fast read. [35:10] pull what quotes I need to, and then have the link there for reference. I'm also... [35:15] super active arena user. I've been on it for 10 years now, probably. And I [35:21] I almost use it as like, [35:23] My finder. Most of my [35:25] Desktop, I would say, is on Arena. If I save anything on Instagram, I always put it in an Instagram saves folder, which is helpful. Okay. Yeah. [35:35] I don't know, there's small gestures. Even every single photo I put on my phone, I put into a photo on iCloud. [35:42] Because it's just something that I have to put into a folder. If it's floating around loose, I will never encounter it. It's gone. Oh, my gosh. You would be just absolutely horrified at the Opsack of Boys Club. It's the exact opposite. It all lives on Dina's desktop in no folder. My desktop intentionally has zero files on it. I love that. You're not a single file. If I take a screenshot, I immediately put it into a folder. Because... [36:09] Wow. No, I just can't find it later. [36:12] Totally. Totally. It's [36:13] It's smart. It's very smart to do. This might be my New Year's resolution is to start putting things in folders. But I really do think it's just a folder thing. Like once we figure out how to put things in folders and OK, at least it's like organized somewhat or else it's just too loose.

[36:28] It's inspiring. It's really inspiring. Okay. I want to close here with just some rapid fire, fire questions. [36:33] You seem to be someone who has a highly curated life, which is so inspiring, truly. Yeah. [36:39] And so I want to ask you just some quick things. First thing that comes to mind, something that you've recently bought that you love. [36:46] I just bought these crazy patchwork denim pants in Tokyo that were like $20. I thought they were like absolute trash pants, but [36:55] I bought them on a whim because they were so cheap and now I'm obsessed with them. Wow. So happy for you. That's a huge guest. Okay. Highlight from your Spotify wrapped. If you are a Spotify user, you might not be. I am not a Spotify user. I try not to use streaming services, but in terms of music, I've been listening to like a lot of Caroline Polachek. I always listen to my friends' bands. Yeah. [37:20] So I've been listening to like the [37:21] My friend's garage band for the past 15 years. I'm happy to shout them out. Bunny and Dead in Chicago. Favorite vice? [37:29] Favorite vice? I have a huge sugar addiction. I could eat a dessert for every meal and I would be very happy. [37:37] best... [37:38] internet follow. [37:39] Like who I followed or followed me? Who you follow. Who you follow. Yeah. Who's one of your favorite people to follow? Or if you have someone who follows you that you were like, wow, this is a huge jet. That's a juicy thing too. Okay. Okay. [37:50] Well, Francis Cobain recently followed me, which was so random because [37:57] - Cool. - Why?

[37:58] I'm so niche. I see it. I totally see it. Yeah. So that was surprising in terms of who I follow. I don't know. I don't follow that many people. I feel like I only follow my friends because my number is really low. [38:11] Because I don't want to see I don't want parasocial relationships. You know, I just want to follow like, yeah, my friends. [38:18] kids and their dogs or whatever they're eating you know i like that i think that's good advice [38:23] Okay, last one here. Favorite meme. One of your favorite memes. [38:27] Oh, it's definitely the one where that woman from Real Housewives is crying and pointing and saying something. And then there's like a cat that's crying and pointing. It's incredible. [38:37] That's the iconic one. Yeah. Excellent answer. One possible part to do is [38:42] the Simpsons grandpa who's screaming at the sky and it says old man yells at cloud because it's just so relevant for our government leaders. So I use that one quite a lot too. [38:52] Amazing. Mindy, thank you so, so much. This was such a fun conversation and I love your work and we're such fangirls. So it's really nice to have you on and hear more about it. So really, really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me. This was great. [39:22] to bank. This is crypto. It's all the time. Anyone's welcome. Open door