Digging into DAOs | Ashley Caines

[00:00] We're doing it live. [00:03] Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. Just Boys Club. Welcome to the show. Hi, friends. Excited to have you here. I hope you enjoyed your weekend. [00:27] And I had a great I had a really nice weekend pickleball tournament shopping hanging out with friends. It's great. Really enjoyable. Really nice. Yeah. And we had a great interview last week. We did. We had Ashley Caines on the show. This podcast is gonna be a real treat. [00:45] for [00:46] anyone who [00:48] has been working in or thinking about or in the universe of DAOs. [00:53] - Yes. [00:55] If you haven't, [00:56] You totally should still listen to this episode, but... [01:00] We go very much into the weeds on Dow stuff. If you love Dow, if you're interested in Dow, this is for you. Ashley Cain is... [01:07] So part of the reason why we get so into the weeds is because... [01:11] She's so smart and she's thinking about the organizational... [01:16] benefits and downsides to [01:18] going from a centralized to a decentralized organization and has really thoughtfully, um, [01:24] examined a lot of the pros and cons. And it was really nice to talk to somebody who really understands the pain points that I feel like we've been, um,

[01:31] navigating through for the last year and a half. She had language for [01:37] the pain points that you and I have just been like feeling, but not been able to sort of figure out how to talk about. And she had a, had a really, uh, [01:45] cogent way to describe it and a framework for how to deal with it so uh yeah exceptional person interview and give it a listen [01:55] on today's show we have ashley canes ashley is full-time dow lifestyle uh she is the head of culture and governance steward at decent dow which is an on-chain venture studio she also spent a lot of time at leadership at tech runs dow which is a sports membership club on the blockchain very much a thought leader in the space welcome to the show ashley [02:25] Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this like highlight of my year so far. Oh, I love that. I love that. That's so generous. I am so excited to just nerd out on DAO stuff with an expert. It's so fun. So, so happy to have you. [02:42] just [02:42] Just full disclosure, we have a lot of baggage around DAO. So hopefully we can work through some of that with you here, because I'm really excited to get your perspective. So yeah, we were really excited to have you on, especially this week. [02:56] There's been a lot of DAO action. First, there was some legislation from Utah on the DAO legal framings and containers,

[03:06] arguably a step in the right direction. And then there was the Ukitao lawsuit, which was entirely negative, I'd say, for what we're all trying to do. We'll get into the details of what happened with both of those. But first, I wanted to ground folks in... [03:19] Dow would love for you to do like explain it. Like I'm five, like what, [03:24] is a DAO to you and why are you excited about them? [03:27] Yeah, okay. So first thing, [03:30] literally explaining it to a five-year-old. [03:32] people working together, right? Like that's what I would tell the five-year-old. [03:36] maybe a 25 year old, I would say that it's, [03:40] a network of people that you're coordinating towards a specific end with a shared economic upside. And I think, especially as I've explored different types of DAOs, I'm really looking for and solving for what is it that we're all building? Because we're all building completely different things, but like saying that they're the same thing at their core. And so what is that same thing? And I found that what we are all building is human coordination models with [04:10] I think that idea of... [04:12] galvanizing people towards a shared vision with some... [04:18] shared bank account or shared upside as you put it is the [04:22] is [04:23] the crispest way to, I think, describe what... [04:26] DAOs. [04:28] are ultimately like it's kind of just like a container for a thing like what is it about [04:33] dows that gets you excited like what do you think it makes possible for the things that you care about

[04:37] Yeah, so before I even answer that question, I'll back up a little bit and say that like [04:42] DAOs are an innovation on organizing. They're an operational innovation that sits on top of a technological innovation, which is blockchain technology. And those two things are important. You could just have a group of people coordinating that have absolutely nothing to do with the blockchain. But the reason why they go so well together is because of the immutable trustlessness of the blockchain. [05:09] that blockchain technology offers. We can do all of this coordinating without me personally having to trust the other people that I'm coordinating towards this goal with. That's a hugely important value to just the human coordination model. That's why they work together. That's why we talk about it in Web3. So now, why am I so attracted to this thing that is very unstable? [05:35] One, I might be a glutton for punishment. And two, it feels like... [05:40] All roads really lead to Rome. So I'm very, very passionate about dismantling current power structures and spreading power around or at least creating power. [05:54] funnels for power. So I'll be more specific. I started my career when I was 14 years old at JPMorgan as an intern and I was in an elevator and I ran into one of the executives at the time, had a

[06:07] 30 second conversation with him. And he's like, you, you're going to be my intern for the rest of the summer. And so I was like in the C-suite at JP Morgan at 14, just like making coffee. Like I don't know what the hell I was doing there. But I quickly like turned that into my career. Like I did that role over and over and over again across like all of these Fortune 500 organizations, different industries, whether it was media, law, finance. And I always made it my [06:37] in the mailroom knew that I worked for the CEO and had my ear and that the CEO knew what was going on in the mailroom. That wasn't changing the power structure, but there was like something there. There was something underneath that sensibility that I had to turn my role into that. That's kind of like reemerging in the DAO space where now I like as a full time job help centralized organizations figure out how to cede power so that they can progressively decentralize. [07:05] I love it. As you're saying that, [07:07] Thank you. [07:08] There's so much that comes up for me and so many questions I have. I think one of the things that I... [07:13] totally agree with. And what you're saying is, [07:16] a vision or a world where power is more evenly distributed and DAOs being a huge experiment and seeing that happen in the world. And, [07:27] I am sympathetic to your work of taking centralized organizations and moving them towards decentralized organizations, because even starting with a decentralized organization, that can be difficult. So...

[07:38] A lot of questions there. One thing that I'd love to hear from you about is as you're doing that work, [07:45] with a passion and a foundation that there's a belief that the world is better as power is distributed more broadly. What are some of the resistance or difficulties that you found in doing that work of moving centralized organizations to a more distributed power structure? Yeah. [08:00] Thank you. [08:01] So this issue is not unique to progressive decentralization. It also exists in organizations that start decentralized, which is governance participation. And the reason why that is a sticking point for me is because I don't just want to facilitate the distribution of power. I want everyone who has the power to make decisions to be educated on making the best decisions for everyone that they now have the responsibility of making decisions for and with. [08:31] one like [08:32] vote on something the participation at the vote is one thing but also what percentage of the people who showed up for the vote read the proposal and then what plus one plus one plus one who read the proposal like actually you know what i mean xyz and so the difficulty of [08:51] in being at a DAO that's a workplace is that when you go work for a regular company, there are a set of rules that you're already bought into. You sign your employment contract and you don't think about it. But coming to work at a DAO, especially a DAO that is progressively becoming a DAO, means that there is a huge civic engagement responsibility on top of your day job. You could be running marketing. You could be running one of the ventures because we're a

[09:21] and you also need to be like very active because we're building the place where you work. [09:28] Wow. Dina and I are both like, we have so much to say. We're so triggered. Um, well, I think one of the, one of the things that you said before that I really don't want to step over, which I think is also what gets. [09:38] and I think Natasha is so excited about [09:41] trying to build a DAO and boys club and also like what, what, [09:44] got us interested and energized about this space initially is that when you're [09:49] telling the story about the mailroom, [09:51] and sort of your relationship within the offices that you were in that had leadership in them. What you were doing was basically trying to... [10:00] bring these quieter or overlooked voices that are in the mailroom, and bring them into the design space, [10:06] that exists in leadership positions. And I think that that's what's so special about DAOs. There's so much opportunity for people to participate. And even if they're, I don't know, come from an untraditional background, or it just it lends itself really neatly to bringing in different voices and new voices. And that's something that like we believe very deeply in at, at Boys Club. I think what I'm also hearing, though, especially in [10:31] in how you're describing your job in the DAO is that [10:35] There's so much work in... [10:38] tending to that soil and, [10:40] and in tending to the community and in a considerable amount of work in [10:46] and context sharing and making sure like everyone has the right information at all times to be able to properly like participate in the world that you're trying to build. That's something that's been hugely challenging for us at Boys Club. And I'm wondering...

[11:00] how you're doing it. If you have any suggestions, people ask me like, you really get to do that as your job. And I'm like, yes, someone recognized that this is a lot of work. And so yeah, really fortunate to do it. [11:12] I heard a DAO described once, I think someone tweeted this, that [11:15] uh, Dow's, [11:17] are a potluck and oftentimes everybody who showed up came with a bag of chips like nobody's thinking about [11:24] the main course and the sides and like that work is, [11:28] It's a shift for the participant from I... [11:32] Um... [11:34] thinking about this thing and have some thoughts to I am responsible for this thing and [11:39] It seems like your work is really [11:42] helping people have... [11:44] a paradigm shift around their role in an organization. And so I'd love for you to talk about like, what does that look like on a day to day working with participants in your DAO? Yeah. So we have what we call RACI framework, which we didn't invent. It's out there in the world. And it's an acronym stands for responsible, accountable, consulted, and informed. And so when we have key metrics around goals for the DAO, we create these like sub matrices that are like, [12:14] is responsible for getting this done, who's accountable for everyone who's responsible, who just wants to be consulted, and who needs to be informed on this decision. And that's how we sort of build the clarity. I can jump down a rabbit hole about this analogy, right?

[12:31] Right. But I think that like a potluck, what's happening is that people aren't considering what's my best dish. Let me bring that. It's like, oh, shit, this party starts in an hour. I didn't think about it. What's path of least resistance? Let me run to the store. And now everyone brought the like run to the store thing. Right. Like we're not all showing up with pot roast. [12:53] We're all showing up with 10 bags of chips. So it's just like, how do you create... [12:59] work streams and how do you create deadlines and things so that people are put in the position to bring their best dish to the potluck and it's not like a mad dash scramble to just get something. [13:12] Yeah. I think it's funny. This feels a little bit like therapy because I think Dina and I have an allergic reaction to the, [13:21] corporate frameworks and [13:24] have been drawn to startups and the work of zero to one because you can, you can be like a maverick in the way that you work and it can just be like, you're just, [13:33] creating and that's a lot of fun and you're not managing a team in the same way. And like, yes, you grow out of that stage, but I think we were sort of drawn to Dow's, [13:43] initially because there was this thinking that [13:46] what a creative design space. And the more that we've gotten into it, [13:50] The feeling that comes up for me is like, wow, maybe this is actually like exactly the wrong type of organizational structure for us as leaders of this thing because...

[14:01] I would say we're not naturally gifted in the work of... [14:06] of like, [14:07] Corporate is the wrong word, but like frameworks that [14:10] allow for that kind of organization. [14:12] Yes, an operations perspective. So it's interesting to hear you [14:16] And what's exciting to me, though, is like, [14:19] What's beautiful about it now is [14:22] incredibly talented people who can do that work so well and are 10 out of 10 at that thinking, are invited and encouraged to lead in the things that they're best at. And that's sort of what I'm hearing from you is... [14:37] that [14:38] a lot of the thinking that you're doing is how do you design for that and have people show up with their... [14:44] best selves and their most present gifts to the organization. Okay, I want to get into some legal... [14:53] DAO questions for you. So we've talked about this on this podcast before, but DAOs are, you know, illegal entities. They're not illegal. They're not a legal structure around them. And we spent a huge amount of time sort of spinning our wheels around this question and trying to figure out what makes the most sense. And money. We spend a lot of money on lawyers. Just cold hard cash out the door. So what's your perspective on... [15:21] the right framing for a DAO in the legal sense. [15:25] And where can DAOs make some meaningful progress on this? [15:29] Yeah. OK, so I'm going to be a little spicy first and say that we as a Dow industry are spending millions of dollars to take stabs in the dark at what compliant activity like maybe could be like these are all just guesses. And had I gone to law school, I would be cleaning up right now. Like I remember.

[15:49] I posted this on my Instagram maybe like a year ago because I was pre-law. So I have all of these people in my professional network that have gone on to be attorneys. And I'm like, guys, if you're even remotely bored in your practice area, you need to jump into crypto. It's a goldmine for you guys right now. So that's kind of my cynical take. [16:07] I don't think it's cynical at all. I'm like, man, if we had all pulled or like created a Dow of Dow's to be like the $15,000 that we spent on a lawyer to try and figure this out. [16:19] like we can all vote on how we're figuring and then like you know so anyway that yeah no it's it's ridiculous but to think about it frameworks I don't think there's a singular right framework and that's why I come back to the definition of it being like an innovation on operations because if you're a non-profit go rap as a non-profit if you are states have like different like bb llcs or [16:49] building when we say that we're building doubts is like how the humans are interacting with each other. And that's really where the experimentation is. I think the rest of this is kind of noise that's been created by the legal industry. Honestly, that's so it's so reassuring. And I think your shift [17:11] in thinking around this is an innovation around organization this isn't [17:15] A new... [17:16] corporate structure. [17:18] maybe, or a new legal entity is really, really helpful because it gives a different type of flexibility to what it means to be a DAO. And that...

[17:30] to me is exciting because I think for us, we've kept coming back to, [17:33] okay, there's DAO, there's like this holy Twitter version of DAO, and then there's our lived reality of Boys Club. And it's important that we keep coming back to... [17:43] One. [17:43] What feels right for our community? What feels right for the organization of the people that we're working with and talking to every day? And that being as much of a North Star as what this new creation of a DAO is and other communities looks like? I guess that's what I'm hearing from you, but... [17:59] Would you say that that's how you how you look at it? [18:02] That's how I look at it. I think it's important to understand what each player is solving for, because we're not all solving for the same thing. Essentially, not to be cynical, but what Wyoming, Utah, all of these states are solving for is how to figure out. [18:16] revenue, how to figure out like taxation, profit from these organizations being wrapped in those jurisdictions and also to compete in some sense with [18:29] international jurisdictions that are getting lots of DAOs just because they exist in a context that is friendlier. Because again, DAOs don't exist in a vacuum. They exist within the larger crypto industry. And if you look at the context of the crypto industry's regulation in the United States, it's just not friendly. It's not a friendly jurisdiction to be here. So there are differences, and we'll dive through the differences of what Wyoming thinks the DAO is versus what Utah thinks [18:59] But if you zoom out, it's like the US still isn't really making the case

[19:04] for [19:05] "this to even be the place to legally rap?" [19:08] When we have the legal conversation, I think just if, especially if you're an operator of a DAO, it's really like getting the innovation of the operations right. Like that is what we're doing. I want to zoom out even more and say that. [19:21] there's [19:22] a take that's removed even from the legality and wrapping of a DAO. As we were thinking about the framework for the Boys Club DAO, we came up against this conversation a lot where it's like, existing on a spectrum. And one side of the spectrum is like, full send, [19:37] Degen, web 3 native, no legal nothing. Like legal who? Government what? Like that's not where we're at. The other side of the spectrum is [19:47] fully compliant in some, I don't know, made up way at this point, or maybe you go to Wyoming or one of the states. And every DAO is going to make that decision differently. But I think that even there's a lot of people on Twitter, who would be hearing this conversation and would be saying, [20:03] Why the fuck do you need to do any... [20:05] Like, we can just have our token... [20:06] And we can do our like little crazy token stuff over here. Now, that wasn't right for us because we're like, I don't want to go to jail. I don't want to get sued, like personally, like all the liability stuff. But curious how that lands for you as someone who's thinking a lot about the legal framing. [20:19] Yeah, I was going to say, you said that each DAO will deal with this differently. And really, I think each DAO's investors will deal with this differently. That's really who's driving this. The investment money is helping to grow the space. It's not at all a bad actor. But to be honest, in most cases, it's

[20:37] the investment money or revenue that's even paying the lawyers fees for you to then do the things that the lawyers are recommending you to do. So yes, a DAO can be created by a DGEN, sure. But like once you invite in the adults in the room, then it becomes what those adults in the room feel is best to be able to play their game that they created. And so that is the tug of war. And that is why [21:04] I feel really strongly. I'm constantly sounding the alarm and talking about the ethics of this space is because we're on a very slippery slope of just recreating capitalism on a lot of fronts. [21:15] talk some more about that because I was reading your piece and I came across [21:19] you mentioned [21:20] ethical definitions for DAOs, [21:23] Talk some more there. [21:24] Sure. So I think that blockchain is a technology, yes, but it's also a philosophy. It came with a promise, like back to the Bitcoin white paper, the Ethereum white paper. There is an ethical bend to the space where we're all, it might be like highly idealistic, but there is this sense of even the degen culture of we're crossing borders with no one rules us. That sort of thing is really built into blockchain. [21:48] what we're all creating. And so [21:52] to create these laws that don't take into account that there's a particular way that they should be applied, I think really... [22:05] removes the opportunity that is here. Like I'm here working in this space, even though it's not a for sure thing that'll exist in five years because of the ethical promise that

[22:18] blockchain technology brings. I think a lot of us are in that space, in this space for that reason, whether or not we like say that explicitly. And so once and at the federal level, like they're thinking about the token, they're thinking about what happens once there's like a financial model in place, they're not even really thinking about the operational design of the DAOs. I feel like a lot of history of what we're building and of this experiment is at risk of getting sort of scrubbed away if we don't [22:48] hold true to that. [22:49] Yeah, I can totally see that tension in... [22:54] in many cases in the work that we're doing and, and just in, in, [22:58] in the industry across the board, especially in the regulatory environment that we've been in recently and how it's affected the market. And [23:08] how that can become really clouded against sort of the beliefs and principles that I think a lot of people were drawn to this space for. One of the recent stories that I'd love to talk to you about in... [23:19] in terms of sort of the legal environment for DAOs is the Oogie DAO, um, [23:25] decision that just came down. So for [23:27] people who don't know anything about Oogie Dao and what happened there. Could you give us a bit of a primer and get us up to speed? [23:33] Sure. So, Ookie DAO is a DeFi DAO. [23:37] I believe [23:39] were a futures commissions market. So that in and of itself is not that interesting, right? Like DeFi, Dow gets sued, but it became very interesting because there's no legal precedent for Dow's. This never happened before. So like everyone just kind of sat up when the commodities futures trade commission served them a lawsuit. So they served them a lawsuit back in September, and they said that you guys are operating illegally, right? Like you can't,

[24:06] sell futures you're not registered like just because you're a DAO like what are you talking about like no shut this down and so they sued them and Oki like wasn't really that responsive along the way for a number of reasons and so it became clear around January that this case was going to go into default summary judgment which is what happens when like the defendant in a case [24:36] because like first it was a big deal because there's no legal precedent and like you're making history just at the lawsuit and now you're allowing history and legal precedent to be decided by a judge it's not even being fought in court because you're not fighting and so that is really like why it was on the radar of everyone in the industry and then this week what we thought was going to happen happen which is that it goes into default summary judgment and the judge sides with the [25:06] Now, Uki Dao has to pay, I think, a little under $700,000 in a penalty and has to wipe their entire existence. Like, Dao has to go away. Website has to go away. Okay. [25:16] all of the things. I'm hearing people say that this case was important because people thought that you couldn't sue a DAO. [25:24] I don't think anyone was walking around thinking that you can't sue a doubt. It just none had been sued. So like that's where we were operating from. Like none had been sued. But there is this part of like, well, if we all own it and it's decentralized ownership, who do you sue? So it must like be that you can't do it because who do you sue? And so in the case of Okie, the founders allegedly had this other entity called B0X, I believe.

[25:51] And B0X was the original Commission's futures market, and they transferred the power and ownership of that market over to Ukidao. [26:01] specifically, this is what the plaintiff is saying, specifically to create this confusion around who would be sued for those illegal business practices if the business were run by a DAO. And so the CFTC was like, that's fine. We'll make this really clear. You can all be sued. No problem. They've got to solve. And so the judge agreed. And so that's really like the big nugget for everyone else in the industry. [26:31] It's like now a judge specifically said you just need to be a token holder. You don't even have to have voted on a particular proposal. Holding a token is an intent to govern the entire operation. And so you as a co-owner can hold some legal culpability within the U.S. jurisdiction. Man. Okay. So there's so much in there. One is that... [26:53] I just want to say because [26:56] When I was getting this news ambiently through scrolling Twitter, the kind of framing of it was like, Dow gets sued. And there's kind of this subtext that's like, it gets sued for being a Dow. It actually... [27:08] had nothing to do with it being a DAO, which is the reason why it got sued. It got sued for doing this creative future stuff and not being registered or not being in compliance on the business side from that perspective.

[27:21] It had nothing to do with it being a Dao. [27:23] the Dow part of the story is the implications of [27:27] a ruling when you are operating in the structure and that ruling being spread amongst the members. So I think that that's one point one. I think point two is that, and this is kind of in conflict to some other parts of how I feel about the space. There's something about how you described it where, okay, anyone holding a token [27:48] could potentially be liable because it shows an intent to govern and sort of partial ownership in some ways. And part of me is like, yeah, it does. And like, you can't have it both ways where you want this token to be representative of your ownership or governance in this thing. And then... [28:07] not have any liability for what that thing does. So there's kind of part of me that's like, [28:12] I don't know. Kind of sounds fair. Like that part of the law is is multilayered because it started with California saying because this was presided by a. [28:21] California federal judge. So at first he said that you need to have voted that like the actual like using your token to vote is the point at which you become liable. But then ultimately, at the end of the case in the summary judgment, it's that whether or not you vote on that token, you are still liable. But then the additional layer to that is if you are trying to in court [28:47] say that your asset is neither a security nor a commodity and its sole value is as a governance token, then you are hinging like intent to govern on that token. Even having that token in your wallet says that you're intending to govern because you're telling me it has no other use.

[29:07] It's not a security. It's not a commodity. Like I can't, [29:10] You know? [29:12] Honestly, checks out. [29:16] I'm okay. You're gonna get so cancelled for this. I know. [29:20] Right. But it kills. I mean, but to my point earlier about like the big sore spot in the space already being governance participation. Now you link governance participation or not participation with legal liability. And it's like, what is that going to do to... [29:38] Totally. Okay, so we walked through a garden of roses and thorns. There's like so many opportunities and beautiful things that I think we all see that this type of [29:51] thing makes possible for human collaboration. And... [29:54] so many unknowns and risks. I mean, and also just generally, as we've been doing Boys Club over the whatever past year, the DAO part of it, it has felt like we're walking through mud. Every step is so hard and hard. [30:13] when you're trying to create that's [30:15] just a really hard thing to be managing. All that said, one of the beautiful things [30:20] And the reason that we keep going back to the DAO structure is that it's brought so many incredible people around Boys Club. And that would have not been possible. Just like simply not possible with other structures of organization. [30:33] totally worth the cost of all this other side of it. And, you know,

[30:37] why we'll continue to be leaning in and doing more seasons of the voice of Dow and continue to experiment in that space. Where do we go from here? There's so many issues, so much opportunity. What would you love to see in the short term, medium term to help, [30:51] this space evolve. [30:53] I would love to see... [30:56] see a couple of things. I'd like to see more centralized entities jump into progressive decentralization. [31:04] I would, not just because that's my skill set. And hire Ashley Gates. Please, you should definitely hire her. I would also like to see us... [31:12] stop rushing social DAOs to monetize. Like, just... [31:16] I would really, really, really like to see that. [31:19] I really want us to focus on... [31:23] the innovation on the like operational innovation part of what we're building from a legal perspective. The only thing that I want to see is there to be a clear straight line from participation in a DAO to lawful economic upside. That's the only thing that I'm looking for now. [31:42] to solve. Whether or not this doubt actually works and people are doing the things that we want them to do is all up to [31:50] the contributors themselves that doesn't exist in this other sort of like legal framework. We just have to get that right. And I think there are a lot of DAOs that just like don't work yet. [32:00] like we haven't figured out how to really get people to give [32:05] 10 hours a week of their time consistently at the same quality of work in the first week as a

[32:13] as in the 10th week, like all of those things still need to be figured out that like, let's just block out the noise and solve those things. [32:20] Ashley, this was so... [32:23] Just... [32:24] like uplifting to my spirit. I'm like, Oh, it's so nice to hear someone who is so smart and so capable thinking so critically and honestly about this space. And I, I, [32:35] really appreciate you coming on and talking to us about this. Like this was, this was really great. [32:40] I appreciate you having me. I'm a huge boys club fan. So, Oh, that's so kind of my year so far. That's so, so kind. Oh, Ashley, um, [32:49] Thank you. I'm sure we'll be crossing paths again. And also for anyone who's listening, if you have a centralized organization and you're thinking of decentralizing, this is your woman to hire to do this work because there are not very many people who are as measured and thoughtful as that I've experienced yet. So I, yeah, just such a pleasure. Thank you so much. [33:19] that it is. - This is when for people who are new, we go into our drafts [33:24] And... [33:25] reveal the tweets that we have not sent that are just lingering in the draft folder. Um, [33:31] Okay. [33:32] Nothing great. I got to say nothing great in here. [33:34] There's two tweets that I often go to tweet and then I don't do it. [33:41] Because it seems too mean and too much of a roast of somebody.

[33:45] Okay. But it's usually like a celebrity in like a weird outfit or doing something stupid or in an interview saying something that's ridiculous. And... [33:55] I'll either just have the video or the image and just write miss. [33:59] You know, like this is a mess or I hate it here. And so I have a few of those logged and I just never tweet them because I'm just like, I don't know, maybe one day that person wants to work with us. And then they're going to see this tweet like she's so mean. [34:13] What's a recent example? A recent example is Bad Bunny... [34:18] At an F1 race. Oh, [34:20] Yeah, and he's wearing a... [34:23] like a button down short sleeve button down shirt. That's like presumably silk that has like a bikini on it. And that's it. [34:32] That's the one. [34:33] Yeah, that was a mess. [34:35] That's where my drafts are at right now. [34:39] - I see. - Do you have anything? [34:40] I have one that I'm working on. It's not quite there yet. Here's the concept. [34:46] The joke is that... [34:48] I'm [34:49] chronically and terminally online and like can't shake. [34:53] the the online-ness from my brain even when I'm doing other things so the joke is something like [35:00] watching [35:01] the Lion King with my kids. [35:04] And... [35:05] the scene in The Lion King where the monkey holds up the Simba baby? Uh-huh. [35:10] And in my mind, what I think is Nepo baby. [35:14] But it's not quite there yet.

[35:17] Okay, conceptually very funny. How you get it over the line to it coming together in a tweet is... [35:26] Challenging. [35:27] The challenge. That's a good prompt. That's a really good prompt. [35:30] Yeah, there's a lot to there's a lot of points to land because I could just do the photo of the monkey holding up Simba and say, Nevo baby, Nevo baby, which is funny in and of itself. [35:42] It is, but I do think it's funnier. [35:46] You lose something in that. You lose something in that. Yeah, that could take it to the next level. [35:53] Yeah. So. Well, looking forward to seeing this story develop. [35:58] Okay, bye. [36:01] Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening. And we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talked about here, you should come and have a good time with us. So email your boss. Tell them that you need to go and buy your ticket now. They will never be as cheap as they are today. And we also have a promo code in our Discord for Boys Club members. Come hang in Austin. [36:29] Friends. [36:31] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous... [36:44] Send it to one friend. Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.