Ep 141: Feelings Check-In with @0xDesigner - a rant on memecoins

[00:00] The ring lights are off. [00:03] Welcome to the Feelings Check-In, a feelings first look at the news of the week. Takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No, no. [00:21] Just boys thought. [00:22] How's Paris? Uh, Paris is great. Hanging with some friends, doing some stuff tonight. It's great. It's so funny. The highs and lows, you know, life comes at you fast. Is it a croissant a day type of situation over there? Um, okay. So I have, as we've talked about, [00:42] I'm trying to keep myself a core body, which has meant everybody's like, eat, pray, love, eat, pray, love. And I'm like, it's basically just pray Pilates. That's what it's been. [00:52] And so my schedule has been, I wake up, I go get a latte. I do my morning pages. I reflect. Then I do something fun. Like I'll go to a museum or go on a long walk or a bike ride or go shopping or whatever. [01:09] window shopping, not buying anything, just looking and taking pictures or a gallery or whatever. And then... [01:15] around like 1:30. [01:18] I'll go get a little something. So I'll either get a croissant or a pound chocolate tartata or tartata, a little treat, a little, a little, I'm just a little girl getting a little treat every day around one 30 or two. Yeah. And then I'll work and then I'll go get a little something to eat either at like nine while we're still working or I'll go to like a 10 30 PM dinner. Oh, I know it's so fun. And then you just have your natural wine and then you have your little slim cigarettes and

[01:48] little moment out there. What a blessed life you're living. Blessed. Just truly blessed. So much to be stressed out about. But choosing, choosing the blessed life. It's great. I'm 10 days in. [02:00] And God is good. Yeah. So that's all. That's what's going on. We're going to the chess club thing tonight for all those who celebrate. And it's men's fashion week here in Paris. So there's a lot of energy, activity, people in town. Men in fashion. [02:15] men in fashion and they look great out there in their little fits. So that's what's going on. Also, [02:21] We're going to be headed to Brussels. [02:24] July 10th, we have an event with DYDX and Wormhole. [02:29] And we're coming back with a non-ball. Part two. It's going to be so fun. We have such a cool venue. We have such cool people who are already on the guest list. Please, if you want to get on the guest list, RSVP now. And please be nice if you're DMing us to get off the wait list. That is our Uno request. We're just... [02:50] Two... [02:51] gals ladies gals with feelings town with really feelings that we're quite in touch with so be nice uh but it's gonna be a great time so be sure to rsvp if you're gonna be in brussels [03:02] We have a great episode for you today. A few notes on the feed. We're in a dynamic environment with our podcast here. And so we will now be splitting out the feelings check-in to a Wednesday episode. Sometimes that feelings check-in will be Justine and I. Sometimes that feelings check-in will be us bringing on a friend or a... Or not a friend. Foe.

[03:32] like a Kara Swisher or a Mark Zuckerberg. Yeah, really Mark Zuckerberg's on the vision board. So we could actually tap into your collective prayers. We'd love to get Mark having a feelings check in with us on the pod here. That'd be huge. So that's really the North star. Grimes would be another one. [03:48] Dasha from Red Scare. We've got a short list. So if you're like connected and wanting to do some general labor, but we had a great guest on today. [03:59] Tell us who we had, Dina. We had on Xerox Designer. You will have seen him around Twitter if you're on Twitter. If you're not on Twitter, God bless you. I truly, truly love that for you. Really love that for you. He is anonymous, so we will not be saying his name. Or his face. And you will not face to see what he looks like. But he is a designer, a UX and UI designer. He designs mock-ups of Xerox. [04:26] ideas that use crypto and brings it to life and he really does work he really [04:31] does the work to try and figure out what this industry should be. So we had a conversation with him about meme coins and kind of the current state of things. And he shared his feelings. I understand that it's kind of hard for him to share his feelings. So, but we got it out of him. We worked and we did, we did the work. He did the work and we did the work. It was great chat, very smart dude, doing some fun stuff in a cringe industry. So enjoy.

[05:01] get asked a lot is what do you look for in a crypto platform? So let's talk about it. Well, Dina, I look for a secure, no fuss platform that I can dive into right away. That's why I love today's sponsor Kraken. If you're waiting for the right time to get into crypto, Kraken makes it super easy and intuitive to get started. Plus, if you get stuck, they have an award-winning client support team that's available 24-7 along with a bunch of educational guides, articles, and videos to help you along the way. If you're ready to check out the simple, secure way to trade crypto, [05:31] and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PVI, DBA, Kraken. View PVI's disclosure at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures. [05:50] On today's show, we are sharing feelings with a niche internet influencer and celebrity. [05:58] And professional think boy, Xerox designer, welcome to the feelings check in with Voice Club. [06:03] Thanks. I actually don't identify as a think boy. So that's a, that's an interesting label. [06:07] I think you're a professional league boy. No, I'm actually, I'm honored. Like, it's actually quite flattering. [06:13] But in my opinion, I make pictures as like a... [06:16] a way to differentiate myself. [06:19] Okay, well, you've been writing some pretty long tweets lately, so I think you might have crossed the threshold into Thinkboy. So for people who aren't familiar with your work, Xerox Designer basically brings crypto ideas to life through UX and UI designs.

[06:35] You did a design every day for 500 days. Is that right? It's like 500 and some change now. [06:42] How has that been? [06:43] It's a grind. It actually has not gotten any easier. The content series is called Design Every Days, and it's a way to explore different crypto use cases that make crypto fun. [06:54] feel more useful, more usable or more delightful. So either I'm trying to be funny by integrating whatever the current zeitgeist on the timeline is, or there's like a crypto app that I use often that has like a bad UX issue and I just create fake redesigns and post them. So it's a mix of a bunch of stuff every day. And it's meant to like either [07:14] inform [07:15] guide or entertain [07:17] people that are like building in the space. [07:19] So there's a lot of designers that create content for other designers. There's a lot of designers that create similar design provocations. And you're right when you say that I'm, what'd you call me? Like ultra niche something, because that's my lane. It's just trying to find the intersection between really good design and crypto use cases. [07:37] And so the medium or the form factor is like a phone. [07:41] mock-up with some fake redesign or some fake net new feature or app idea or something. But it's once a day, sometimes twice, depending on how I'm feeling. Just to bring it to life for people, what are some of your favorite designs from Design Every Day? Like mock-ups. I have one that I have in my mind, which is you did one that was, I think, a wedding gift. [08:01] where it was like, give so-and-so a wedding gift, and it stakes the ETH or whatever, and if they stay together, then...

[08:08] they get the ETH and if they don't, then you get to reclaim. Was that one of, was, that was one of yours, right? [08:13] That's a throwback. That's way back. So I'm impressed. I'm impressed that you remember that. Tina's in the archives. So people ask me all the time, like, which one's your favorite? The truth is, it's like, I can't remember most of them. [08:25] Just like every day, it's part of my morning routine. Like I wake up and I just try to think about either something that I'm doing in the day or something that I did the day before. [08:32] that can be better with crypto or something that's in the current conversation around crypto. And then I'll just try to like. [08:39] laser in on trying to fit an idea into that. And so like when people ask me what my favorite idea is, I actually have to go back and look through all of them. But that one was an interesting one. And I'll say a little bit more about that. So the thing that I try to avoid is using financial use cases. And that was one of them where I think that a lot of the [09:00] The value that I try to add is exposing use cases that aren't financial with crypto and [09:06] There's been a few that we've done together. I don't know if we want to like add more context on the things that we did. The three of us were brainstorming for the conference that you guys put on. One of my favorite ones that we collaborated on together was the import an algorithm or like having some control over your algorithm on some social platform. So whether it's [09:27] an ability to port someone else's algorithm into your own feed or being able to more easily manipulate what you're seeing. So saying these are the things that I'm actually interested in. These are the types of advertisements that I want based on those interests and having it be much more malleable.

[09:43] based on whether it's your own data that you're importing or your own blockchain activity that is dictating what your feed looks like. So that one's always interesting to me and something I think a lot about often, especially with where Twitter has been going recently. [09:59] Totally. And I think that's the thing that we've always been aligned on is that crypto has a lot of headlines around the casino, around trading, around people making either tons of money or people losing tons of money. And there are a lot of people that read the headlines and are completely unaware of like all these other interesting these cases. [10:17] like that the money is programmable that you can like use crypto to make ai better make your experience with an agent better that you can make the internet more multiplayer one of the ideas that we collaborated on together that you guys didn't like as much as i did but i think about it all the time like dina suggested this idea of a shared shopping cart or like being able to shop with someone else if a shopping cart is decentralized you can actually overlay it on any website and then invite people to build a shopping cart together and that was something [10:47] And when people think about crypto, they don't think about those types of use cases. It's always just investment in assets and not necessarily these social experiences. Go off. [10:57] We love that. And it's really fun to see it come to life. And it's very inspiring to see on the timeline. And as you're saying, a very nice reprieve from a lot of crypto Twitter, which is always about... [11:09] Yeah, trading, making money, and a lot of that narrative. And recently, you have been on one specifically about meme coins and this current cycle and that being the quote unquote culture side of crypto really being taken up with meme coin.

[11:27] chatter and you being quite anti. So giving you some space here to make your case against the meme coin of it all. [11:37] When did my ranting start? Like a week ago? That sounds about right. My ideas really sucked for like a long stretch. It was hard to come up with ideas and... [11:46] Like I wasn't proud of them. The thing that helps me continue going, even when I don't feel like doing it, is just accepting that like some ideas will be bad. But a couple of weeks ago was like the longest stretch of ideas that I was not happy about or things that I posted that I wasn't happy about. [12:00] And I was trying to like reflect on why. [12:02] and [12:03] I think it was just because I was [12:05] bored, uninterested. I just wasn't as enthusiastic about the stuff. [12:09] as I normally was. [12:10] And then it dawned on me, I am trying to insert myself into a conversation that I actually don't even want to be a part of. [12:15] And... [12:16] The reason this conversation is really meaningful is because I think [12:21] What brought that to my attention was a monologue that Dina had around that time. That must have been like around a month ago now. [12:28] And it was like at the end of one of your episodes and it was a feelings check in. And it was a very vulnerable rant about just kind of losing the plot. [12:38] And so when I heard that, it was like a light bulb moment for me. [12:40] Because I can relate. I was like, wow, I'm feeling that. I didn't even realize that I was feeling that. Actually, can you describe it, Dina? That thing that you were feeling? Yeah, I mean, I think I was feeling at the time, I don't actually know if it was directly related to meme coins, though I think that [12:55] It's all...

[12:57] in the same sort of soup of just feeling like there's, I suppose, a lack of freshness and- I can remember. Oh, you can? Okay, great. Yeah, totally. You were like, I love crypto so much. [13:10] I love this industry so much, but I'm feeling like really rugged by this cycle. [13:16] where it's [13:18] Not any fresh ideas or people or talent, but it's just like ETF money and meme coins and... [13:26] It's really uninspiring and it feels really hard to continue to be the flag bearer for an industry that like oftentimes looks like a joke. And the Donald Trump of it all had just happened where it was clear that Donald Trump was going to put crypto into the conversation. And then all these people on crypto Twitter jumped on that. And you were just like atmospheric in the cringe. I remember specifically you saying and being like, it's really hard to keep grinding and keep trying to get people to be excited about this thing that like, I don't even know if I'm that excited about. [13:56] it anymore, even though I deeply love the tech and believe that it's really [13:59] compelling and revolutionary. [14:02] And I try to say some things that would make you feel better in a gym that work. [14:07] So that was the monologue. Yeah, I mean, I think that that definitely tracks with how I [14:13] been feeling. There's so many embarrassing sides [14:17] of this industry and that's what [14:19] gets headlines. [14:20] And when you're like in the, [14:23] trenches of trying to change the perception of it. It's

[14:27] wears you down. But I don't know that that's necessarily what your recent rants were about, Xerox Designer. But it's related. [14:34] It's related. I don't think meme coins are bad. I don't think we should stop trading meme coins. I don't think we should stop talking about meme coins. [14:41] But it is the lack of [14:42] That's been so frustrating, like the lack of freshness. [14:45] Actually, I remember messaging you trying to find a clip of it because I wanted to reshare it. And honestly, it might even be worth resharing that clip. [14:53] like overlaid on this conversation because it was it was so meaningful. It was like the best crypto content that I'd consumed in a while. [14:59] It was like the thing that actually made me feel excited again because I was aware [15:04] of [15:05] the [15:06] the lack of excitement that I was having and for context, [15:10] I had been [15:12] Investing. [15:13] like with a very long time horizon in crypto since like 2016 2017. So I bought Bitcoin, I bought some Ethereum, I had a friend who was like [15:21] very much a Bitcoin maxi who taught me about cold storage. [15:24] In 2017, I literally put all my crypto in a safety deposit box in a hardware wallet. [15:29] Just like this very extreme [15:32] precautionary measure for like [15:35] custody. [15:36] And I often get people ask me why I didn't sell during the ICO craze, like why I didn't sell after like some pump. And my answer is always like, I don't even know what was happening. I wasn't even paying attention to anything that happened between 2017 and 2021. [15:50] I had like a 40 year time rise. I don't have kids now. I don't have plans on having kids, but someday when I do and they're my age, this stuff will be valuable. And then in 2021, there was like this cultural moment is like this first contact with consumer internet.

[16:06] And that was fascinating. I was like, I can actually spend this stuff on things that I find interesting. [16:11] Yeah, just like fast forwarding to [16:15] the last couple of weeks, I'm realizing that we're back in this very hyper-financialized [16:21] period of crypto that [16:22] has like always been uninteresting for me. Like DeFi has a lot of impactful implications for the world. [16:29] like giving financial services to the unbanked. No one can argue against that. That's not necessarily what... [16:36] what draws me to like using crypto every day though. [16:39] And I feel like we're back there. So the fight that I'm trying to pick against meme coins is, [16:46] that it's just [16:48] boring. [16:49] And like, I know it's like very mean driven and it can be entertaining, but it's only entertaining for so long. [16:55] And it's only entertaining for so long, especially given how much money I've lost trying to participate. [17:04] Okay. Okay. I'm totally with you. [17:25] it's like a way to capture a distributed community and like capture the energy around a distributed community. [17:33] that feels sort of closer to what I get the sense that you vibe with. What's your take on the scene coin meta?

[17:40] I think even more broadly speaking, there is a point to be made about like communities that form around meme coins. Scene coins feels like a subset of that. It is, I think. Where it's like more lifestyle oriented. And that was interesting. I think Hire did some really interesting stuff that I tried to participate in. But let me ask you this question. [17:56] Are you a part of any meme coin communities? [17:59] I'm not, no. Aren't you a part of... [18:02] Aren't you a part of... [18:03] gay or something gay coins is just not gay shout out to the gay coins group chat the gay coins uh doesn't have a token it's just a group chat it's just a group chat are you for real [18:15] This whole time I thought it was a liquid token. You guys are just hanging out in Telegram. [18:21] hanging out on telegram and talking about talking about meme coins so there's a lot of chat on like higher and and enjoy and degen and crash and all that yeah okay but no the the gay coins uh does not have their own token now they're the sports club and that's been a very like deliberate choice that we've made [18:39] I suppose, against the scene coin narrative and that it's never felt right for us. There's this quote, which is, [18:47] That's going to sound crazy, but just bear with me. A border implies the violence of its creation. Any border implies the violence of its creation or implies the violence of its. And do you understand the context of it? It's like. [19:01] Whenever there's a border, there's been violence to [19:04] Establish that border and to maintain that border and that's kind of how I feel about mean coins where it's like I [19:09] Meme coins imply financial loss. There's no way to have a meme coin.

[19:15] without there being some counterparty on that trade who is... [19:19] Losing money if you're making money or you're losing money while they're making money and so I think that personally why I've never I think advocated for boys club to launch a meme coin and also why I've never participated in the meme coin narrative myself though I understand sort of the value of it is that there is always someone who's your counterparty there's always someone who's gonna have financial harm and like I also believe that everyone can make that choice and play the lottery and gamble and go to Vegas and like I'm. [19:44] I'm all in on people making their individual choices around that. But I think that the community stuff, I think, loses a little bit of steam around... [19:51] when you [19:53] when you recognize that that's always going to be true for any token. And I think the celebrity stuff always feels a little short-sighted to me because there's always going to be a moment when... [20:02] they're selling that token. [20:04] there's on a long enough time horizon. [20:07] And so with the best intentions today with Iggy Azalea, I do believe that at some point she is planning to sell [20:13] Mother. Like it's a it's a financial asset. And like, there's a reality there that that's [20:20] Certainly what like the underlying intention is so anyway, that's why it falls down for me But I'm curious if that is there for you as well [20:26] Yeah, the only exposure I've had to meme coin communities [20:30] is a friend. So meme coins have completely ruined my friendship with a longtime friend. [20:36] Oh, no. No, I say this only half-jokingly. He's still one of my dearest friends. He's one of the smartest people I know. And a couple months ago, he had just begun his...

[20:47] journey into crypto and everybody that starts with crypto who sticks around usually has like a shaman that sort of talks them through the deeper stuff. My Dina. Yeah. So I was I was I was the Dina for for my other friend. And we were just in it every day. He's asking questions about just how to use the thing. [21:06] And fast forward, you know, a couple of weeks or a couple of months now, he just keeps texting me every day to buy ski mask dog. Oh, no. [21:14] He's trying to pump his bags. He's trying to pump his bags. He wants you to be his exit liquidity. So I keep like as a way to maintain my friendship with him, I keep buying Seamass Dog like in small increments. And anyway, so like as I'm just sort of poking my head into all these different meme coin communities. [21:34] The communities exist only so far as people can have a group chat to see how active people that are holding them are as like a. [21:42] a way to determine whether this has more upside. Is the group chat toxic? It's a sell. Is the group chat, is everyone vibing? It's a buy. And NFTs were the same thing, by the way. Like this isn't any different from any other meta. [21:55] But [21:55] The issue with meme coins that is distinct from like the stuff that we were just throwing around in 2021 when everybody was buying like cartoon monkeys and all these different like weird characters is that it was visible. And I tried to make that point a couple days ago on Twitter about [22:13] There's this inherently social aspect from previous cycles where you could display the things that you owned and you could signal the values that you owned.

[22:21] that you had based on the things that you were holding, even if it was a speculative asset, the thing that you were investing in. [22:27] said something about you. And now it's just like, okay, do we think Trump is going to mention this meme coin? And that is the analysis around like, do I want to be a part of this community? Are we all going to get rich together? [22:37] Versus I thought there was previously a lot more expression around things that you, that you held and the way that it brought you closer to other people that you could just like make inferences about the things that they liked and find. [22:50] find your tribe, basically. And so I think meme coins are very PvP in that like you're it's just a bunch of money being sloshed around by the same people, but also you don't know where everyone is. [23:03] And that makes it more of a casino and it lacks the social aspects that we've had in the past trading like NFTs, for instance. Yeah, that resonates. And I think one of the things that I've been seeing, I saw a tweet from I think it was Jacob from Zora, who was sort of. [23:20] responding to someone who was laying out the past bull runs. And it was like, [23:25] DeFi, NFTs, and then it was 2024, like question mark. And Jacob [23:32] retweeted it and said social and obviously that makes a lot of sense with what they're doing at zora and what they're building but i'm curious if that lands for you that [23:40] right now, okay, it's really [23:44] easy to say that meme coins are boring and it's feeding into this [23:49] disillusionment and discouragement and sort of burnout that I think I'm seeing across a lot of especially

[23:54] consumer crypto, [23:56] And to jump on that, okay, meme coins are distracting and discouraging, but like what's next? Does it land for you that... [24:04] a more social... [24:06] play is what's going to happen in 2024 and looking at Zora as a signal for that of having [24:12] some sort of [24:13] financial incentive to what you're putting on the internet, which I think is what Zora is up to. But I'm curious what you think about that. [24:21] Yeah, it's interesting kind of drawing Zora into the mix because I don't see Zora as something that will [24:27] ever really become [24:29] a [24:29] a meta, like the thing that we that we think about is like a crypto thing. [24:33] Because I think they're pretty set on trying to transcend crypto's industry and trying to get into like, [24:39] just creating a new social network. [24:41] So it's hard to reconcile all this with like what Zora is doing because it fuels... [24:46] Detached. [24:47] But isn't that what we're all trying to do? Yeah, I would say you talk to any crypto company and they're saying we're trying to onboard the next billion users. We're trying to get out of the crypto industry. I think everyone would say that. Yeah, I think that's fair. But what people are talking about mostly right now and the things that's [25:03] driving a lot of the development, especially on the product side or on different token innovations, is just like, where's liquidity and where's the incentive to build interesting things? Whereas Zora, on the other hand, is like, post to a social feed and get paid for it. Do you think that has legs? Post to a social feed and get paid for it? [25:18] Are you getting, are you getting, are you posting to social media and getting paid for it? [25:23] Yeah, every day. Like, how much are you making from Zora rewards?

[25:28] I don't know. I rarely check. It's it's it's incremental, but it's enough to be like, OK, wow, this is this is significant. OK, I don't know. I'd have to check. I'm not even going to guess. So at brand new, Dee did a talk. [25:40] about Zorah. [25:41] And there is something that I think about often that he mentioned [25:45] on that stage, which is when you like something on any other social platform like TikTok or [25:50] Instagram or Twitter or whatever, you're only interacting. Whereas Zora is trying to create this new paradigm for like receiving some kind of material. [25:58] in return. [26:00] And I just keep thinking about that term, like material, like when I like something, I'm getting something back, something that I can hold, something that I can plug into other apps or something that people can recognize I have in my possession, independent of the platform that I'm using. [26:30] based on that sort of action of someone encountering something on their feed and liking it and saying 100 degen or whatever and that's effectively a tip to that person's wallet which is novel and only able to work efficiently because of crypto but so I started in crypto in 2017 and there was [26:48] Bitcoin Satoshi tipping then that was tried by many different startups. And I think even at one point, Jack Dorsey was super into experimenting and had some like stuff that was on maybe Twitter or maybe it was one of his other...

[27:01] apps around tipping and the act of tipping and i just think that as a [27:06] that as the [27:08] behavior [27:10] I think won't work. I think... Wait, no, you're missing an important nuance. Okay. [27:15] So the degen tipping and I think degen as a token is the exception to how boring meme coins are. [27:21] Although I will say that like holding DGEN [27:24] and speculating on DGEN is still very boring behavior, in my opinion. Like, again, it's not bad. It's just it's just uninteresting to me. But there's an important distinction to be made between like tipping Bitcoin and tipping DGEN, because when you tip DGEN, you're distributing a token from whatever the undistributed pool is. [27:40] So like there is a set amount of degen that you have per day that if you don't tip it, nobody, nobody gets it. [27:48] So rather than it being like, okay, I have a balance of some token and I can tip you. I think the novelty behind Degen was like the mining of the token is distributed through tipping, which I thought was really, really novel. Right. Whereas instead of just coming out of your own wallet, essentially. Exactly. Exactly. [28:06] Yeah, I mean, I have said that before publicly on Twitter. X and PeaceNode came at me with the same... He loves to do that. ...with the same comment, which was that there is some novelty in the sort of mechanics around it. And I totally agree. I want it to work. Just this new consumer behavior around tipping, wherever the money is coming from, I... [28:26] just can't I can't see it but I want to I want it I want it to work genuinely I just don't know that that's

[28:32] But do you see it? Me? Yeah. Yeah. I actually think the tipping, it's like, okay, there's Bitcoin's proof of work, which is you have to solve a bunch of math problems in order to unlock a token reward. [28:44] And then, you know, proof of set, whatever, I'm not going to get into like all the different types of proofs, but it's just creating this new behavior of proof of some action that somebody is trying to validate as a way to distribute tokens. So like the distribution mechanism. [28:59] I love that. I hope that sticks around. I hope people try to iterate and build new ideas on top of that. The issue is, [29:04] what the fuck am I going to do with this token? Like, so even if it's distributed, like, now what? [29:11] Trade it for ETH. Money. Yeah, right. [29:18] Okay, great. I have... [29:20] A question here for you that... [29:24] Thank you. [29:25] You purchased an ape? [29:27] For 60 ETH? [29:29] Is that true? Free. It was basically free. [29:34] What do you mean? That's crazy. You have to explain yourself. That is crazy. And what could you sell it for today? [29:41] Okay. [29:44] I bought this ape in like 20... [29:47] Of course. And 20, whatever. When it was like the center of attention. Peak. [29:52] Yeah. [29:52] You bought the top? Basically. Cool. I've been there. Not with apes, but. It's a great deal. Yeah, yeah. A great deal on a very, very aesthetic, on a very aesthetic day. Steel. Okay, people ask me all the time, why are you anonymous? And the majority of that answer is because if my friends knew all the stuff I was doing on the internet, like, it would just be humiliating.

[30:11] But no, I actually think that it's like that, that eight purchase was defensible because, first of all, I think the 10K PFP meta was historic in that it created this new medium [30:25] So regardless of all the speculative aspects of it, first of all, they created the playbook for a new way to sort of create this membership token. So everything I'm saying, don't assume that I'm saying that it was a good thing or the outcome was good, but just that this new model, this new way of doing things is really what's important to me. So it had a toxic culture, but it was a new creative medium and allowed artists to make new things. And that was cool. [30:49] And they released IP ownership through this token. So like if you had a rare ape, you could use that for commercial use without any consequences. I thought that was interesting. Oh, this was a light bulb moment for me that you create a product that had aligned incentives. So you had to consumer own something [31:06] And that the more successful this thing that you owned became, the more valuable it was to you. So there's 10,000 holders of a PFP. Every single person is like a foot soldier on the marketing front because everybody wanted this thing to be more valuable and everybody wanted it to be [31:21] I wanted more attention to it from a creator standpoint, from like an entrepreneurship standpoint. [31:25] to create a product that people that you're selling something to are on your team trying to get the word out. That's like a new model, even though it's very MLM-y. Wouldn't you say that that exists within meme coins? How do you signal that you own a meme coin? That's the issue. That's like 90% of the issue with meme coins. I put it in my bio with a little dollar sign. I'm serious. I don't know. I don't know how to do it. But I think that is how people do it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's as visceral. And even the meme coins that people are trying to signal that they own

[31:52] are independent of their identity. It's like, oh, this thing is cute or this thing is funny. [31:57] And I think more people will find this thing cute or funny. And that's the financial upside. You found identity through the Bored Ape community? Stop it. I'm asking. That's what's implied in your head. Roast him, Dina. Roast him. Okay. All right. Also, like, equally humiliating is I still hold a PFP from... [32:17] most of the major collections that had a lot of the attention at the time. Did I find my identity in any of them? And that's for another episode. [32:26] The other thing about the Ape set, even though I bought at the top and I've been holding since, like it still turned out to be a good investment because there were a bunch of drops that came that I ended up blowing on more NFTs anyway. Okay, so you still hold this Ape? [32:38] Why are you looking at me like that? Because it's so crazy. It's a crazy thing to do. Okay, well... [32:45] I don't understand, but thank you for trying to explain. We're just going to take a quick break and we'll be right back. [32:52] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly. [33:21] B at kraken.com backslash boys club, not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Transfers to a third party are not available on Kraken. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures, Inc., PBI, DBA, Kraken. View PBI's disclosures at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures.

[33:42] I have one more question. So I was looking through your tweets and I was seeing your rants about meme coins. And by the way, I feel like I've ranted against meme coins in this conversation more than you have. So I have somehow put myself. Oh, yeah. We've established that you have you have ignited the spark in me. [33:56] - Okay. But I did see in, [34:00] a trend in people commenting under your posts saying, okay, well, Xerox Designer, what are you going to build? What are you going to build about it then? Oh, I saw one that I loved. Someone was just like, touch grass. Which one? And I was like, this is so... [34:15] So it was so funny to me. Like I almost screenshot it and sent it to you. I was like, man, this person is really, it really got me. That too. Like people being like, it's easy to criticize without having like a viable alternative. [34:26] Yeah. I mean, I've ran, I had two, [34:29] really long posts about this. The first was that I think you should be able to tear something down without suggesting an alternative. [34:35] And I know that sounds like kind of outrageous, but I think the thing that crypto is self-selecting in a lot of people that are very forward thinking and experimental and curious and really smart, like some of the smartest people I know are in crypto. And I think regardless of whether like crypto is a... [34:51] is a thing that stays. I've just enjoyed all the people that I've been able to interact with along the way. You guys included. It's just about the friends you make along the way. Exactly. Exactly. We need to bring that meme back that needs to enter the zeitgeist again. But I think to tear something down means to create more space for people to like move on to the next thing. Okay, let's try something else. And I think that's okay to not have anything to suggest to fill in its place. I think more people should just try more things as opposed to like, everyone's talking

[35:21] be focusing on. And I think when you tear it down, you're giving people permission to think about something else. [35:26] I think that's super important. Yeah. And then the other thing is the things that I mentioned, like I had a really long rant on Twitter, just reiterating this idea that there should be, I don't know if it's a product or a group chat or like a new kind of token, but something that's on display so that you can relate to people. Ownership as a way to [35:44] to express something about yourself so that you can attract people that share [35:48] your interests or your values is the most compelling meta, like speculative meta that I can think of. And that was what I experienced in 2021 that I became absolutely obsessed with. And yeah, I don't know, I have a bunch of thoughts that it was like a [36:03] thousand word rant that I had after like an extra shot of espresso in the morning [36:07] Well, I thought the sneaker... [36:09] Parallel really made sense to me. The idea that previously having been for sneakerheads, like your sneaker as the way to sort of show your identity and your culture and to signal things to other people who recognize that that sneaker is something that has value. Do you want me to break that down? [36:24] Please. Okay. So yeah, sneaker culture has a thing called the nod. Yeah. [36:28] where like the sneakers are essentially cultural artifacts that you can wear. It's, it's very different than like a graphic tee or like, like pants. You can't really [36:35] infuse cultural value into those objects unless it's like a [36:39] You can do it with t-shirts, but sneakers have just always been like this. [36:43] way to absorb [36:44] culture. And when you see someone that has a rare or interesting design, like you give them the nod, they know, they understand the things that you understand. And like, no words are exchanged, you just kind of nod at each other and continue about your day. And there was this period where I was like traveling a bunch and I went to, you know, lots of different countries across different continents and everybody was wearing the same sneaker. And it was like this, like,

[37:04] culture that transcended borders, no words needed to be exchanged to know that like, okay, we, you know, we like the same things in Asia or in the Middle East or in Europe, like everyone's wearing Jordans and Yeezys. Like, why is that? And why do they want to? And what are they what are they trying to say about themselves? But I know that like, [37:19] I could probably strike up a conversation with anyone across any of those countries without having to [37:24] know anything else about them. [37:26] And that to me is like an interesting thing about tokens that [37:31] like NFTs were doing the same thing, but it was doing it at scale. [37:34] So you can have a nice watch or a nice car. [37:37] You know, you could signal wealth or you can have like a painting or some other like valueless [37:43] but priceless cultural artifact. And the only people that you can interact with [37:48] with through it are the people within your proximity. So like how many people can you fit in a room or how many people can you pass by on the street and interact with [37:56] using this shared language of something, of this object. Whereas on the internet, it's infinite scale of the people that you can sort of expose yourself to and you can attract and you can interact with. Because if you set something as your profile picture on Twitter, [38:10] there are thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that they'll see it. [38:15] And that makes relating to people on the Internet far more scalable than the things that we're using in real life. [38:23] And this is the thing I didn't mention in this rant, is that I still have like 120 sneakers that have never left the box. And I get a text message from my mom. [38:30] Mike. [38:31] Almost every day. [38:32] berating me because I store them all in her house. And so now it's her problem. So like I have to store these sneakers, whereas NFTs, you know, they don't really occupy any space. So that's like the other added benefit.

[38:45] Nice. [38:46] I love that. A beautiful place to end. I do just want to ask one last question. I feel like you've done a really good job. We've done a feelings check in with you before and it did not go well. And this was a lot better. This is a lot better. But any final like feelings to express here at the end of this time here together? I'm optimistic. I'm excited again. [39:10] Yeah, I'm excited again. Great. And I invite you... [39:14] and anyone else who's listening to jump on the meme coin teardown train with me. Again, meme coins aren't bad. They're just boring. And I think we should band together. [39:22] and encourage people to try something new. Great. Well, you heard it here, folks. [39:26] zero x designer on twitter just jump into his replies start suggesting other ideas there all right thank you so much for coming on appreciate it yeah thanks for coming on