Ep. 104: Feelings Check-in. 1) Sam Altman and OpenAI Drama 2) Questioning if we have the stomach for media

[00:00] It's the feelings check-in. [00:01] The feelings check in and all we feel is, [00:05] is sam ulman coursing through our veins welcome to the feelings check-in a feelings first look at the news of the week takes no one asked for on topics everyone's talking about i'm natasha hoskins i'm dina burke and this is boys club wait is it just boys club it's just boys club the boys club podcast no no [00:28] Just boys club. [00:30] So this is a special pod emergency podcast. Oh, no, it's not. It's a normal Tuesday podcast where we're doing the feelings check in and we're talking about the craziness of open AI and probably the one of if not the craziest. [00:46] The wildest... [00:48] tech moment to happen potentially in our lifetimes. [00:52] We're seeing it. [00:53] Yeah, I'm just... It's happening. Live and erect. So, how this episode works, I'm Natasha, and... [01:01] I'm Dina. That's Dina. We were just on another podcast and I was like, oh, they introduced themselves. [01:07] And what we do in this episode of Boys Club is we spend 15 minutes talking about an emerging technology story and brief story. [01:18] listeners. And then on the second part of the podcast, we talk about our feelings about our life and our work and our [01:26] Some people like it, so stick around.

[01:56] investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated. PBI, DBA, Kraken. [02:08] I feel really silly talking about the open AI story. I gotta say. Why? [02:12] You're an expert as much as any other think boy on Twitter. All I've been seeing on Twitter is in addition to the story developing and breaking in real time, which has been... [02:22] a communal experience and so fun to watch. Although of course people's lives and livelihoods are affected. So [02:29] for the most part, everyone's going to be fine. And so it's just... Yeah, all these people are going to be totally fine. But so it's been just kind of a... Well, not kind of. It's been a super fun thing to watch. So in addition to sort of the story breaking, and then people's like funny memes about it is every other tweet's like, shut the f*** up. So I feel silly. I do understand. Matt and I were walking around yesterday and [02:54] And... [02:55] walking to coffee in the morning and I was like, man, this opening stuff is crazy. And he was like, oh, I've been kind of following it, but like fill me in on like, whatever. And we're just talking about it. And I was like, so aware that I was like walking around McCarran park, [03:09] talking about the open ai story and hypothesizing exactly about what was gonna happen and who's who and i was just like shut the up like shut up totally here's what i would say if you're listening or a listener and you're fully up to speed on the story

[03:29] You don't do that. Don't do that. You always do this. You tell people not to listen to the podcast. [03:37] Cannot do that. This is potentially their experience. They've been as obsessed with the story as we have been. They've been following it and they want to hang out with their online friends and continue talking about it and hearing about it. And my experience was I went to a party on [03:59] a woman's ear about what was happening they're like here's what happened the board removed him and i was like this is me this is me i was at dinner and i was like guys are we gonna talk about it and everybody was like do we have to like non-tech people were like oh you were the guy shouting in the i was the guy shouting in the ear anyway so dina [04:20] For those who have been in the dark, what is happening? I will say this is a rapidly developing story. [04:27] It has changed... [04:28] shape completely [04:31] from Friday... [04:32] afternoon when the story broke. Friday, it was one shape. Saturday was another shape. Sunday, it was something else completely. And now Monday, midday, it's now this whole other thing. So I will say- This is just me on my period. [04:45] Every day is a new shape. Moody, moody and transforming and all sorts of ways. So I will say the caveat is we're recording this Monday, 2.30 p.m. Central Time, 3.30 p.m. Eastern Time.

[05:02] but I'm going to try and keep it as brief as I can a briefing as to what happened to get us to this point. How up to speed are you? I'm pretty up to speed. I'm pretty up to speed. I haven't been on Twitter in like 90 minutes. So but I have my I got a notification yesterday on Sunday afternoon and it was like you have spent 15% more time on your phone this week. Take a beat. And I [05:32] Okay. So I'm somewhat, I'm pretty up to speed, I guess. You're very up to speed. Okay. Well, feel free to jump in and help me with this briefing. Okay. Friday afternoon, open AI's board. [05:43] And abruptly announced that the co-founder and CEO, Sam Altman, was out. He was out of the organization, effective immediately. [05:52] Without saying it directly, they kind of imply that he was fired after a review concluded that he was not consistently candid in his communications with the board. [06:01] That phrase consistently candid has come off a lot. And that was their verbatim phrasing on to why. Also gone, Greg Brockman, the president and co-founder of OpenAI. The two are very much considered the heart and soul of this organization. Of course, OpenAI, maker of ChatGPT. One thing to add about Greg, as my understanding was he got a call that he was being from the board. He got a call from the board that he was being removed from the board. And then he resigned. Right. [06:30] So essentially they would have wanted to keep him, removed him from the board, but keep him working at open eye and he quit. Thank you. Fact check.

[06:37] So this was very shocking news. Shocked. [06:41] Twitter, Twitter, [06:43] also shocked Microsoft. They have famously invested $13 billion in open AI. And reportedly they only found out about this removal of Sam Altman 15 minutes before the statement was released. So yeah. [06:56] just... [06:57] crazy towns for them and and that ends up coming around in today's narrative and [07:07] Who's in? [07:08] Mira Murati? [07:10] Mm hmm. Interim CTO prevails. 34 years old. [07:14] God bless her. God bless me. So then it's we all go to sleep on on Friday, what's gonna happen? Wow, what a big change. Saturday. [07:23] We woke up. [07:24] And [07:24] headlines that [07:26] open-ass board want to try and hire Sam back. Wow. What a change of heart. What a change of heart. Okay. Also, I think this is important to include. On Friday, it was coming out that Ilya, the fourth... [07:40] co-founder of OpenAI. [07:42] and board member was sort of the champion of this firing firing and he was the one who's really brought it to the board's attention and then really like pushed it through he was the um conspirator yeah the saboteur the judas [08:00] One could say. Okay, continue. So we're waking up Saturday. [08:04] Horn Saturday and... [08:06] OpenAI's board maybe wants to hire him back. Wow. Crazy. Insane. And then Saturday into Sunday, the negotiations are starting where Sam's talking to the OpenAI board and presumably he has like all the leverage in the world in this conversation with OpenAI board. And this starts happening. And then people start posting heart emojis on Twitter in support of Sam and Greg. Very girl coded behavior, I have to say. Very girl coded. Almost. It's hard to believe. But like, yeah,

[08:36] Like basically the subtext is I stand with Sam Altman. I don't know why I don't really like it. I'm just like, is this, have you been joking around? Like what are we doing here? It's very millennial. Like it's very millennial. Oh my gosh. I'm just like, when someone tells me really hard news and I'm texting with them, [08:54] I am thoughtfully never responding with an emoji because that's so rude. If someone like loses a family member or goes into surgery or has a, a baby's a little different, but like a heart emoji is just like cheap. It's a cheap transaction. It's cheap, but it's visual. Picture, picture paints a thousand words. So that's Saturday heart emojis all on the timeline from the, [09:20] OpenAI employees and then other riffraff starts joining in. Corporate account. The corporate account. [09:28] Okay. So then Sunday... [09:30] The negotiations to reinstate Sam to open AI, presumably with some changes to the board, like there's more sort of details start to come out around that. And then it's reported that Sam gave these negotiations a 5 p.m. [09:44] deadline. And during this day of negotiations at the OpenAI office, [09:49] there's boba teas did you see the tweet about boba teas like a delivery guy with a bunch of boba teas like and then another delivery with another set of boba teas can you imagine the delivery guy he's like i'm going into open ai with a bunch of boba teas for the board [10:06] so that starts going down whoever on the board was like

[10:10] someone want a boba tea that is me that is me i know we're like really in the heart of it but like a boba tea sounds really good sounds delicious boba tea's all around let's get him going okay so then i have a very early bedtime as you know i had to get to sleep [10:31] I saw that. I was like, oh my God, it's 7.15 p.m. [10:37] So I assumed that he was going to be reinstated. And so that's why I sent the tweet from the Boyz Club account where with the we are so back picture with Sam Altman, like I was like, oh, this is going to play because he's going to get reinstated. Monday morning, we woke up that did not happen. So Monday morning today, we wake up and a serial founder and entrepreneur, Sam Altman and Greg are hired W2 employees by Microsoft. The absolute goat. Incredible maneuvering by [11:07] Microsoft. Setia Nadella, legend. That man is a legend. 5D chess. He's like, all you can be cute with your little 501 3C nonprofit little board situation. I'm just gonna come here and just [11:23] Bye, everybody. Sniped. He's totally sniped. Okay, so Sam and Greg hired by Microsoft to start a new advanced research AI unit within Microsoft, but separate to it. And then the former CEO of Twitch... [11:36] Emmett Scheer is put in as interim CEO, like a total left field choice that no one saw coming. And honestly, the whole shape of today and how Microsoft now has Sam, Greg, and presumably anyone who wants to join from OpenAI to come and join Microsoft. Basically, they've acquihired OpenAI for no dollars. And it's incredible maneuvering. Crazy. A few more things. We're

[12:06] OpenAI board member who was assumed to be behind the firing originally tweeted, I deeply regret my participation in the board's actions. I never intended to harm OpenAI. I love everything we built together and I will do everything I can to reunite the company. So Ilya flips and he is now Team Sam. And then what's happened this morning and this afternoon is that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of OpenAI employees have started signing a petition threatening to quit and join Sam at Microsoft unless the entire board resigns. [12:36] 770 employees have signed it. 700? 700, yeah. Of 70? Oh my gosh, last I had heard 90 minutes ago was 500. Many, many people. Wow. So that's the briefing. [12:50] Incredible work. Thank you for your service here. I think that... [12:54] some interesting things about this that I'm just completely obsessed with. One is that it's all developing on Twitter. It's happening that it's happening as fast as the feed will load. Like that was my experience of it. And it's just like refreshed, refreshed, new information, new information. And like from the players of this, not just commentators. Yeah. Like Sam [13:24] Julia, it's firsthand stuff. Yeah, totally. Firsthand info. And if you're not on, you're missing it. [13:33] If you're not there, it's gone. And what an incredible experience. And then on top of that,

[13:41] All the tweets that are going along with it that... [13:46] And memes that are so... [13:48] deeply funny, like hilariously good. And they never seemed to stop like all weekend. It was just like, Oh, well, and I was so hung over on Saturday. And I was like, this is [14:00] a gift from the Lord that I have endless entertainment at my fingertips just to lay here with my Gatorade and refresh my Twitter feed and be entertained all day long. So that was crazy and really interesting. Like one, there's some funny parts of it, but there's also this other part of it that's like, [14:19] absolutely insane and wild that this business that is valued at over 90 billion dollars decisions feel like they're being made on a timeline like on a twitter timeline not like a deadline and the hearts the selfie with he at one point sam altman took a selfie with a lanyard that's an open ai lanyard with a guest pass and he was like last time i'll ever have this lanyard around my [14:48] a juvenile-ness to the way that it was sort of being communicated. That was very strange to me because... [14:56] For a year, these people have been saying that this is the most important technology that has ever been developed. It is threatening humanity as we exist today. And you need to trust me. [15:08] to inform people, [15:09] the US government and regulators and the public on

[15:14] what we should do and how we should use this technology. But now when all of it's crumbling, I'm going to post a heart emoji. It's so strange. It's so strange. It is. It is really, it has played out in a really strange way. I will say just for some more context for folks who are maybe wondering how, [15:35] why this has happened. So there's been a ton of speculation as to why he was fired in the first place and really what the tension is. Because up until this point, I think, [15:46] No one has really felt like [15:48] There's a problem. A problem. Yeah. OpenAI has had pretty... [15:54] tidy corporate comms, I'd say. It's been pretty tight. And so there's really been no sort of hint at this rift or fracture internally. The speculation themes that have the most heat are one, it's this idea that it's a board made of nonprofit people. OpenAI is technically a nonprofit, but it's a for-profit company at this point now. It was started as a nonprofit, [16:24] members themselves as individuals are sort of academics and non-profit people. They're not startup people. And so the fundamental sort of tension is between that non-profit board and a for-profit company. So my understanding of it is that there's the non-profit and that what you're speaking to is essentially that I don't fully understand how this works, but they have this other vehicle, what they were able to raise money into and what represents ownership and the cap table of OpenAI. I don't fully understand the relationship between that and the non-profit

[16:54] the main issue that you're speaking to is that the governance of that vehicle that raised money, that is really like the heartbeat of OpenAI at this point. That's a entity that is [17:02] for profit, their governance of that entity is still a nonprofit board. [17:08] And those things are in tension with one another. Yeah. And then further speculation on that point is that [17:13] the reason why there's this tension is because of the, [17:18] this general thing that's happening in the world around the conversation of AI, around acceleration versus deceleration. This is [17:25] been bubbling up in tech Twitter. You see people with E slash ACC in their Twitter bios. Mark Andreessen just came out with an EACC manifesto a couple weeks ago. It's gaining momentum, I suppose, as an idea, as a movement. Effective accelerationism. I don't really understand it. We're going to have a podcast about it in a couple weeks with people who are really smart and who really get it. And they can explain it to us and to you. But my understanding is this idea of, generally speaking, [17:55] accelerating the development of [17:57] and deployment of ag technology. [18:00] versus slowing it down for safety before it gets out of control. And there's all sorts of dangerous and unintended consequences that happen as a result of that. Sam believes that the tech is going to solve for humanity's problems. Climate crisis, for example, like he's talked about many things that he thinks that AI can solve for. And decelerationists, decels think it's

[18:26] dangerous and we're going too fast. That's kind of one thread. One of the other things that has been happening on Twitter that has been really interesting today is a bunch of people who seem to work at OpenAI tweeting, OpenAI is nothing without its people. And that has just taken over my timeline with a ton of people tweeting it who seem to work there and then a ton of retweeting it. Sam tweeting it with a bunch of hearts, hearts, hearts, hearts. Mira was also one of those people. [18:56] the board from Alia. So... [18:58] One of the conspiracy theories that I saw was one of the first tweets that Sam... [19:04] wrote, [19:05] on Friday when this all went down was I love you all was the first thing he tweeted and [19:11] And then he goes on to say, today was a weird experience in many ways, da-da-da. But... [19:17] If you take the first letter. I hate this. I hate it so much. But go on. If you take the first letter of every of that first, I love you all. It spells Ilya. [19:29] And I, and so people, I don't even know what the conspiracy is. I don't even know what it was either. It was just like, what? Okay. It's Mozilla. It's just so like, you know, when people. [19:39] take Taylor Swift song lyrics and tweets and stuff. And they're like, well, her album was released on 10. Yeah, but you love that. You love it when they're trying to convince the world that she's gay. [19:52] I... [19:53] uh okay you love it you do love it i like it in the context of the galer universe totally i totally love that level of speculation speculation in galers but

[20:04] I don't know. It's like pretty low stakes and stupid. And I think we can all kind of agree on that. Whereas this, it's like, I don't know. It just felt. It's very high stakes. I think that I am so curious what the next few... [20:18] days and weeks. [20:20] Will. Minutes. Minutes. I'd love to hear your favorite meme and I will share my favorite meme, but a more serious take, which I don't follow these guys. I don't listen. I actually tried to listen to their podcast today and I might start. I don't know. But one of the all-in guys had a take where he was essentially like [20:38] What a giant... [20:41] waste and a huge disruption of value and creation. Because no matter what, even if every single person who works at OpenAI goes to this new research team at Microsoft and they start developing it internally, that disruption is going to cause... [20:59] so much fallout, a slowdown of everything that they've been working on and developing. And that's even if it's like somewhat seamless of a transition. And... [21:10] Whether you believe in... [21:14] acceleration, whether you don't, [21:16] There's something... [21:18] To me, as someone who believes in this idea of the American dream of building and development and innovation, and that's exciting to me. [21:30] To have that all come crumbling down in such a fast way is just sort of disappointing and the destruction of a lot of value in like a very, very short amount of time, which is disappointing to see. So I don't know him. I don't follow that guy. I don't really understand the all in craze. But I did think that that was an interesting take.

[21:45] Nice. Okay. What is your favorite, your favorite meme from last weekend? Yeah. Well, my favorite meme, uh, you don't want to say, [21:52] No, I do. It's crass, but it's... [21:57] So funny. [21:58] And we posted it on... [22:00] the timeline the tweet that says i can't believe this is how i found out and it's a screenshot that says he was trying to fuck the air [22:07] all weekend I've been saying that to Dave and he's like shut up [22:12] well I just find it so funny I heard it's so funny that's so funny that's so stupid it's so stupid oh man um there were so many that I loved and so many that got me so good um if you're looking for a nice little compilation we'll put ours in the link in show notes where we compiled some of them but I did really like [22:34] The one that you saw just immediately was funny to me. It didn't take any brain power, which was excellent, was someone who tweeted, I can't do it. And it was a screenshot of chat GPT-4, a chat screenshot. And it says, they killed your father with a sad face, but not even an emoji, like a lo-fi sad face. [22:55] so funny so there's some really great ones i just sent you one that came through today that i think is really good it's like [23:04] i'll explain it oh so it's the meme structure where it's people like shooting each other in the back of the head like it's like one person then someone behind them is with a gun and then there's someone behind them with a gun so the first one is like sam altman's there and then behind him with a gun is opening a board and then behind them with a gun is mira marati and then you see a bigger shot where it's someone like sniping the three of them and it's inside the church inside the church and then it says the opening i board is sniping them and then there's

[23:34] building sniping inside the church to that person. It says such a Nadella. So really what I think this meme reveals is he has come out. [23:42] On top. On top. He killed it. [23:46] He killed it. He's killed it. The other thing that I was like, why? I was like, what? That's so weird. The Twitch CEO. But then someone was posting pictures of Sam Altman's YC year. [23:59] the year he joined YC and Emmett Shearer is in it. And I was like, Oh, and I'm sure a lot of the other open AI co-founders know it's like, there's such a small bubble. And also in this picture, it was probably 20, 25 people, one woman. So that was disappointing to see. But anyway, so that's what's happening. Story developing. A boys club, you could call it. You could call it that. When you're first getting started with crypto, it can be scary. Am I doing this right? [24:29] like my bank or trading app, how is it new and different? Well, that's why we love Kraken. They have a 24-7, 365 customer support team that's there to hold your hand all along the way. This isn't a nine-to-five Monday to Friday bank. This is crypto. It's all the time. Anyone's welcome. Open door policy. Come one, come all. Try something new at kraken.com backslash boys club. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided [24:59] PBI DBA Kraken. [25:03] I have a feeling. Okay. I shared a bad tweet in the newsletter. Oh, you want to talk about that?

[25:09] I just want to say something around it. [25:12] Okay, great. I'm totally happy to. Okay. I shared about tweet. [25:16] And I don't really want to talk about the tweet and what happened, but basically all I could talk about what happened was that I... [25:23] It was just like moving really fast and I was trying to get the newsletter out, trying to like whatever and didn't like do enough diligence on it. And... [25:31] Totally... [25:32] 100% on me and made a mistake. Like I made a, I made an error in that moment. And then found out, found out that I shared a bad tweet, very, very bad tweet. And then I [25:44] Bad tweet, bad tweet, bad tweet. And then the whole day, my whole day was around two. Yeah. And I mean, I was texting you and Miranda about it. I just felt... [25:54] so bad and I felt [25:56] So much shame. Yeah. And I felt... [26:00] like i let people down and this is going somewhere so don't worry it's not just self-flagellation like it's i'm gonna land the plane somewhere but i need to say first that i just was like really going through it like i was like at costco family i couldn't think about anything else it's just like online i was just like it ruined [26:18] my day. And I was just like thinking about [26:21] how [26:23] badly I felt and how much shame I felt and like how stupid I felt for making that mistake, which felt like a really amateur mistake that I should have known better and I should have known better. And I could not get over it. I could not get over it. I was like fixating on it all day. And... [26:36] I had a feeling in that moment

[26:40] moments, I was feeling like [26:45] I don't know that I'm cut out for this. [26:47] And... [26:49] One, I don't know that I have thick enough skin. [26:52] To handle any backlash that will happen around Boys Club at some point, something will happen. [26:59] Thank you. [27:00] Not this tweet, but whatever. There'll be some error or something, whatever. [27:06] And... [27:07] So I just feel like I don't know that I have the stomach for it. Yeah. [27:12] Because I feel... [27:14] I like everything is so personal. I take it so personally. [27:18] I just, like, I don't know that I'm... [27:21] cut out for [27:24] the big leagues you know like because stuff happens stuff happens all the time and yeah [27:31] you can be as prepared as you [27:33] as anything and things will still happen that you [27:36] didn't anticipate. And I, [27:39] I don't know. I just like, I don't know why I take everything so personally. [27:42] Yeah. [27:43] And I'm feeling like I need to either stop taking things personally and just [27:48] get way thicker skin or I don't know, do something else. What do you think? I think you are being way too hard on yourself. First of all, it's not so much about this tweet. It's like what the tweet and what the error, what the error revealed is that like, I'm sensitive. [28:04] Yes, I think it was the way that we found out is someone emailed us and... [28:09] Which I'm grateful to them that they emailed us. So grateful. I, but it's a really bad feeling to have been like, I messed up and...

[28:18] that like pit in your stomach, heart, heart, [28:21] Falls to your stomach feeling is horrible and throws anybody off their game. And I think it makes anybody question like if they're doing the right thing or if they're in the right place. Arena. If they're in the right arena. And... [28:38] I... [28:40] Do you think that you need to get tougher skin? I think that that is true. Yeah. I think that you will. [28:48] Exposure therapy. [28:50] There will be more mess ups. We will both mess up. We, the brand, us personally, people who are on the team, every, every, [28:58] which way it will happen. And that's the nature of being alive. And I think, [29:05] I do think you need to get a tougher skin around it, but I also think that [29:08] what makes you so lovable and what makes it so nice to work with you is that you care so much and you care that this, [29:19] that there was a mistake and that, [29:21] something went out that was not representative of you or the brand or the things that you care about or the things that boys club cares about. And I would take you feeling like, [29:32] bad about this like over you being a different person any day like I think that you're such a special person and that's what's revealed I'm not just accept it just allow just allow it to be in the room with us I think the compliment is in the room with us and I think that it is important to

[29:54] for you to reflect on the fact that we have been doing this for two years. [30:00] And we have had mess ups. [30:02] all over the place, but a public... [30:05] error that you feel really bad about. [30:09] That's a really good track record. That's a really good track record. And I think, [30:14] you know what the reason was like moving too fast, a lot going on. Open AI was imploding. Okay. We can't, are we expected to do our best work under those circumstances? And I think it's totally understandable. And I, one thing I said to you on the phone yesterday was just that, you know, [30:32] There's two things that I think if anybody has been paying attention at all to who you are as the writer of the newsletter to boys club as the things that we care about and the work that we do. [30:42] They... [30:43] We'll have to know and have some grace for our intentions. [30:48] and knowing our intentions. [30:50] And I would hope that that's there. [30:53] Second, [30:54] So [30:55] In the land... [30:57] of the internet and in the world that we are abiding in by working in this crazy remix, repurposing, retweeting, co-creation where things are mashed up and put together and put back out into the world. And it's really, really hard. [31:17] to know [31:19] everything that you're putting out all the time. [31:21] I think that that is a mistake that will happen again. And things like that will happen. And that's sort of the game that we're in. And I think we can be careful about that and sensitive to...

[31:31] those types of things. But unfortunately, the, [31:35] I think it's really easy to make those types of mistakes in, in, [31:38] the age that we live in and in the type of work that we do. Yeah. I guess I, I appreciate all of that. And I think it's true. I think it's mostly like, [31:48] Okay, if we're playing a media game. [31:50] The game that we've decided to play here for right now is called Media. And that is... [31:58] what we're opting into and... [32:01] Thank you. [32:02] what we're doing. And I think when I look at the people who are good, objectively, maybe not good, who are objectively successful, right? [32:11] at media. [32:12] Mm hmm. There's a real thick skinned ness that I see that is shared amongst all of those people. [32:20] And I don't, I'm not saying that I want to be a Dave [32:24] Portnoy character. But I will say... [32:28] Thank you. [32:29] he doesn't seem to care about, [32:32] what people think of him. [32:33] Mm hmm. And I and I think that that's true with a lot of media people that I see. And I'm not talking about like a media personality and influence. I'm not that's not the game personally that I'm trying to play. I'm talking about media. [32:45] business owners, whatever. And... [32:48] I think that there's, I think that, [32:51] That's something to aspire to. I aspire to... [32:56] I want to have success at this thing that we're doing. And I am just confronted by in order to have success in this game that we've decided to play, it may need a different type of makeup of a person. And I'm not sure that I'm not that person. And I makes me feel bad. It makes me like question everything. So yeah.

[33:11] And I'm glad we don't have investors that are listening to this podcast and thinking, where did I, what did I put my money into? Like there's a freedom that we have. I've made a huge mistake. [33:23] I'm grateful for the freedom that we have to be able to talk about this openly because if not, I'd be feeling doubly bad about it. [33:29] But that's all. That's what comes up, Marie. I think that two things. One... [33:33] I think that... [33:36] We... [33:38] collectively can hold two things in her hand. One, that [33:44] I do think there's a prerequisite to having a resilience and a tough skin and a stomach to take care. [33:53] Criticism and hits. And I think you and I both... [33:57] need to work on that. [33:58] And [34:00] We will, and we'll get there. And it's exposure to it that will get us to the other side of that. [34:06] Thank you. [34:07] Secondly, [34:09] I have always... [34:10] thought about in many ways in the way that we work that we, [34:15] There is something really exciting to me about this. [34:21] showing a different type of way of being in the world. [34:24] when it feels like [34:27] man, I don't know that I'm made out for this thing because I don't fit that persona. Like I felt that a lot when I was a first time person [34:36] founder and often felt like I don't have the stomach for this and all of this. I'm so emotionally involved in my work and that hinders the work and I,

[34:48] One of the things I got to was like, I want to have a different type of leadership. I want to set a different type of example of what it means to be a founder and how I can show up in the world as my whole self and also do really, really good work that doesn't look like. [35:02] Maybe the dude sitting next to me who is so... [35:06] steel skin around it. And I think we can try to hold both those things at the same time. And I don't think that's easy, but I, I, [35:16] think we are cut out for that. That I do think we're we are cut out to do. Thank you for listening to our feelings. [35:23] I don't know if you want to hear them. [35:25] If you do... I don't know. People really seem to like them, but... [35:30] Is that a vocal minority? Can you let us know if you want us to keep the feelings check-ins or not? Talking about being thick-skinned, if you hate this section of the podcast, just let us know. It would be useful. It would be really useful. It would be really useful to know. [35:47] It's a podcast are very hard to know if you're on the right track. Cause totally. [35:51] It's a black box. Yeah. Anyway, thanks for listening. I hope you feel better today than you did yesterday. I do. I do. Thank you. [36:04] There it is. That's Boys Club. We have two podcasts, two online, where we talk about internet culture and this podcast where we report on some Web3 or emerging tech story and then talk about our feelings, the feelings check-in. So thank you for listening.

[36:21] anything else that's it thank you so much