Ep. 109: Feelings Check In. 1) A Points Explainer 2) Big Zine Edition 02 Feelings

[00:00] So... [00:01] We... [00:02] are learning about [00:04] This thing called crypto for the first time, seemingly. [00:26] Just boy stuff. [00:27] Hey. [00:28] How's it going? Good. How are you doing? I'm good. So today's the feelings check-in. It's going to be half our feelings, half... [00:38] learning about [00:40] what's happening on crypto Twitter. [00:42] right now and what's happening on crypto twitter right now is everybody's talking about points [00:46] Mm-hmm. [00:47] So we sent out a bat signal on the wire. [00:51] Last night. And we got somebody in to talk about it. Seraphim hit us back and said, I'll talk about points. And... [01:01] I had no idea what was going on. We've entered an area of crypto that Natasha and I don't regularly inhabit. [01:09] And... [01:10] So, [01:12] It's funny because on one hand, we feel so close to the industry and so embedded in this industry. [01:18] And we're on crypto Twitter all the time. And then on the other hand, you and I aren't in DeFi at all. [01:24] And so when DeFi creeps in, [01:27] It's like, wow, how the other half lives is incredible. It's incredible. They're...

[01:33] Creative. [01:34] With money. For better or for worse, I don't know that it's entirely... [01:39] productive. [01:40] Oh, totally. My husband has this joke when he sees people at the gym or... [01:46] on like TikTok or Instagram doing like crazy things at the gym where they've got like, oh, [01:53] like a restrained band and they're on a Boshi ball and they've got to wait and they're doing all these things at the same time. And he's always just like, do something else for longer, just do something else for longer. And that's sort of how I feel about DeFi. I'm just like, just, [02:06] Make money slower. Well... Like, it's fine. I mean... [02:12] It's not new. There's people being very creative with money in traditional finance. [02:16] as well, for better or for worse. And... [02:20] I think we see that in DeFi. It's just... [02:23] faster, [02:24] more anonymous. [02:26] and [02:27] with better memes. [02:29] I will say though that the, the criticism around points, which he he's pro point the, the guests that we brought on to talk about points, [02:37] It's pro points. So he's a pro points guy. Yeah. You're going to hear that, that side. [02:42] There's a large group of people who... [02:45] Don't like points. [02:47] Because... [02:48] It's not DeFi. [02:49] I think they would say technically it's not too bad and that it's like, [02:53] Very centralized. [02:55] arbitrary rules can change [02:58] determined by [02:59] people and not smart contracts in terms of how the points are

[03:03] wielded and earned. That said, a lot of [03:06] Big names are using points right now. To care for the listener who's not on Twitter, I just want to give a little bit of context. You do this at the beginning of our interview, so that's great. But I do just want to... [03:16] Tell you what's going on. Basically, there are a bunch of... [03:21] crypto businesses who released... [03:25] programs that are rewards programs, just like SkyMiles, Delta, Delta. [03:31] Sephora points... [03:33] Whatever. [03:34] Just a points program. Like we keep saying points like it's a new word. It's not. It's just that's what's happening. A loyalty scheme. [03:41] A loyalty scheme, exactly. And so... [03:45] crypto twitter has a lot of thoughts and a lot of feelings because [03:48] I would say most of the DeFi... [03:52] crowd who's playing around with these different tools and different platforms and protocols are waiting for [03:59] an airdrop from these companies. And an airdrop is basically when you as a user... [04:04] get dropped, [04:05] tokens at a specific value based on the market into your wallet. And there's a lot of people who [04:14] do something called airdrop farming where they go to all these different protocols and they do all these things on these protocols in order to, [04:20] be around when there's an airdrop and make some money from it. Well, also a big part of airdrop farming is taking on chain actions. [04:28] on and around different protocols. [04:31] Because those on-chain actions can all be tracked.

[04:35] And you don't know what on-chain actions are going to be the ones that will result in airdrops, but that there's like an assumption that some of those on-chain actions will be rewarded in some way. So a lot of people do that waiting for an airdrop. And then in the last few weeks, this trend of points has become more common where you're getting points that maybe would relate to an airdrop, maybe not. But there's a whole layer that's been added. So a lot of people have a lot of feelings. [05:03] about it. [05:04] And so we brought on Seraphim. [05:07] To explain what's going on. Yeah. I think maybe also I'd be curious at the anti-points perspective as well. I don't know. Maybe next week we can have that conversation because I do think that is totally valid. I agree. Would be interesting to hear. Totally. I do want to say, full disclosure, Boys Club has experimented with points. [05:25] In the past. We have. We have our dimes program. [05:28] And Natasha, you talk about this in the interview. [05:31] it's obviously not on the scale of $800 million in TBL that's gone to blast around points. And also it's [05:41] Not airdrop farming. More akin to a Sephora point. And in the interview, we sort of talk about the differences. And I think what was useful is like... [05:50] All of these businesses have a reason why they're doing points. [05:54] they have like a thesis for their business as to why they're doing points as opposed to an airdrop or how the points relate to an airdrop. And yeah, [06:02] Rightfully. [06:04] Sarah Fim asks us like what our objectives are around that. So we get into that a little bit, but it was interesting because I feel like we've been talking about points for a while and sort of thinking about.

[06:14] How they play into the business. Do they? What's the point of them? How do they differ in crypto versus in traditional businesses? Like what is sort of the... [06:21] main point of a point. Yeah. We're not sure that we're ever going to launch a token. [06:28] And so to invest... [06:30] in the points program, [06:33] Especially now seeing how common it's going to be for crypto businesses to build up a points program that then relates to an airdrop. For me, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That is not how I've ever thought about points for boys club. [06:46] And if that is how people are thinking about it, [06:49] It's almost misleading to invest in that as a part of... [06:53] the rewards system within voice club anyway lots of interesting things we're way in the weeds so this is so just the deepest we're so in the weeds so let's be further in the week hey natasha what is crypto to you crypto is so much more than charts and gains it's a whole new financial system entirely new technological rails to enable creativity ownership wealth building and more free of credit scores and spending habits kraken is your easy to use newbie friendly bridge [07:23] whole new world. Everything can be better. So why not finance to get started? Go to kraken.com backslash boys club, sign up in just a few minutes and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to US and US territory customers by Payward Ventures Incorporated, PBI, DBA, Kraken.

[07:44] On today's pod, we have Seraphim, the head of growth at Athena, [07:50] Seraphim, [07:51] is going to explain points [07:54] Welcome to the show. Hey, how's it going, guys? Okay, let me get started and tell you what I think I know. And also, I'm curious what Natasha knows. And then we can go from there. So, points... [08:08] started coming into the timeline very aggressively this past week, this concept of points. [08:15] From my perspective, it came in mostly because of the Rainbow Wallet account. [08:20] points launch so when everyone started talking about points i was like oh they're talking about the rainbow points thing which my understanding of of the rainbow points is basically they're using off-chain points to reward engagement [08:33] in their app. And maybe that's wrong or right, but like, I'll just give you sort of the world of what I know that we can dive into it. So rainbow points. [08:41] And then you and I were DMing and you were like, oh, blast. [08:46] two, which is a layer two. And then I was looking into that and they have blasted using points as well. Those are more sort of a referral points. And then [08:54] I go into our Discord and I start chatting with people about points. Shout out to Emily Loves Crypto on her Discord. And she was like, also friend tech. [09:01] Is using points. And blur. [09:05] NFT Marketplace is using points and then Farcaster [09:08] as well. And then [09:11] The last layer here, and then I'll want to see what Natasha knows, is my understanding is that in the past maybe 48 hours, there's been an on-chain process.

[09:20] points meme token [09:22] that is like a token token with no, with my understanding is no utility. I don't know how you earn it, but that, that has also come into play. So there's many layers of points and all these different players are using them. [09:34] People are upset about points. Some people love them. Some people hate them. But now there's also an on-chain points as well. [09:41] Natasha, how are you tracking on this? Okay, so Points was coming in hard and fast into my timeline, and... [09:49] I thought it was rainbow as well. Rainbow points. And my understanding was people were upset about it. [09:56] Some people loved it, but there was a lot of backlash because it wasn't on chain. And so people were upset about that aspect of it, which feels understandable to me. Yeah, and I all the other things you said I have no awareness of. So that's all I know. I have some thoughts on points and we've done our own experimentation around points. So I'm [10:15] I'm curious to have a conversation with, [10:17] hear about [10:19] What is going on? What is occurring, Sarah? Can you explain to us? [10:26] The history is broadly right. I think from a very practical perspective, points really came to prominence. [10:34] I think, personally, with Blast, because it came out of nowhere, and it quickly gained 800 million bucks in TVL for a layer 2. It's actually not even a layer 2, it's just, as of now, it's not. [10:47] We need a layer 2, but it's branded itself as a layer 2. And the mere fact that it just goes from 0 to 800 million bucks when most of the layer 2s cannot even get to 30 million.

[10:56] made people go crazy. They were like, "Points clearly work." What they don't know is that, well, [11:01] pac-man has already built a successful product before that um and other nuances but i think last really set the precedent for [11:09] Not to say the precedent, but it was a really popularized point. When you say they get to $800 million, [11:16] what? [11:17] How? What? [11:19] What do you mean by that? Can you just unpack it a little bit? Yeah, so there's two schools of thought, like a spectrum for how to reward people in crypto for certain actions, right? On the one hand, you have very direct... [11:31] Thank you. [11:31] on-chain system that lots of protocols employed where like we launch a token and then let's say we incentivize volumes and every epoch which let's say lasts every two weeks will be incentivizing people uh proportionate to how much volume they've generated over that two week it's very transparent it's pretty clear people optimize exactly for what you told them to do [11:52] What often that led to was that if you specialize firms would be really good at what they do and they would account for like 90% of the volume and they'd get all the. [12:02] airdrops or all the tokens right um so that's kind of what often happens airdrops are saying if you just say [12:08] as much activity as possible. A couple of MEV bots just walk in and they generate all the activity and they get all the tokens right. And that's what you would consider an airdrop farmer? [12:18] Right? What you just described? Yeah. Yeah, sort of. Yeah, pretty much. But like an enterprise-grade airdrop farmer, I think is what he's referring to. Which is like, the big guys come in and they're vacuuming up all the tokens and airdrops because...

[12:34] their like industrial strength yeah guys that put in least amount of actual useful work and get extract as much value as they can which is fine i mean this is the business on the other side you have guys like most of the later two has been doing that they basically deploy later so you're like arbitram optimism base linear etc and they just don't tell you anything you kind of assume you're going to get an airdrop if you are active on that chain [12:59] They've been pretty quiet on that. Some people have been bridging. [13:03] to all these layer twos. They've been trading, they've been doing a bunch of things, but they don't really know what they need to do to get the airdrops. So they've just been fucking around there pretty much. And I think what Bloss did was something in between. They said, look, we're not going to give you [13:17] the token right now. But we're going to tell you broadly what you need to do to get the token eventually. But we're going to have a lot of discretion into how we're going to give it to you. And what they said is basically bring TBL, bring actual capital into TBL. [13:30] blast. [13:31] find people that have capital, bring them in. And we're going to give you points. Really quick. What's TVL? [13:38] just capital. Bring in Ethereum. It stands for total value locked. Okay, great. They're bridging it basically from Ethereum mainnet. They're bringing it to Blast. [13:50] Well, Blast is technically not a layer to yet. It's actually more like a multisig, essentially. They just put that money into the multisig. That ETH actually gets staked underneath into Lido. [13:59] which is a popular staking provider, they earn 5% or whatever, plus coins. Okay. And I guess the idea is that

[14:08] Unlike those late suits, they didn't tell you anything. [14:11] Pacman, so the guy who founded Blast, he's just saying, this is what you kind of need to do now. [14:16] Point is more like a very weak, [14:19] unenforceable claim on a token. He has the discretion to say [14:22] what you know if you're going to get it or not so it's much harder to game the system because he ultimately had the discretion to do it right um so it's a middle ground and i think that's why it's been so successful because it's kind of told you what you need to do without putting yourself into a corner as a founder and uh people being going crazy because you know it's got so much traction okay i have so many questions and [14:46] Just be gracious with me. What comes up for me is like, why wouldn't you just have a token? [14:53] But the main difference, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's two main differences that you're pointing to. [14:59] One is that the business that's issuing the point has much more control and discretion over the rules that dictate how and why and what you get in relationship to that point. [15:11] And then on the other side, it's like, it's not a... [15:15] liquid token that can go up or down in price and dictate the value of it. You are sort of having your own parameters around it. So that's why these companies have opted for points instead of [15:28] an airdrop of tokens. Is that fair? [15:30] - Yeah, absolutely fair. First point is exactly correct. So much more discretion. And the second point, just to elaborate a bit more,

[15:39] Yeah, so the fact that you don't issue a token straight away, that's the magic of it. You don't know what the valuation or the price of the token is going to be like yet. So there's this, you optimize as a farmer or as a person trying to get the token, you do everything because you don't know exactly what the valuation of that token is going to be like. It could be billions of dollars, right? If you have the price of the token in front of you, you know exactly what the value is. It might be less attractive because you know that what exactly the value is. So the Enigma keeps it going. [16:09] Okay, a few things to put into this conversation now I feel like I need to interject. One is that I wonder how much of the points... [16:17] trend is born from the regulatory environment. Like, are these people trying to skirt sort of token and airdropping by [16:23] doing this like off chain, like essentially what's a loyalty point or equivalent, like a Delta Sky Miles. And then the second thing is I think that, [16:33] we'd be remiss to not talk about the criticisms of points, which is that what you're describing and even attention, what you're describing in giving the company or whatever the protocol is, the discretion to determine that is not really in the spirit of decentralization. And I think like a big, a big, um, [16:49] Criticism of... [16:51] blast was there's five people on the multi-sig. These five people are determining what this points mechanism is. And, [16:59] they can, because it's off chain, they can say one thing now and then in three months time, completely change their minds and go totally another direction. So I think that that's a big part of why people have been getting upset about points this past week. Would you say that's, is there anything else that's angering the internet about this?

[17:21] Before we get to anger, to answer your first question, so regulatory stuff, [17:27] I don't think that necessarily solves the problem of regulatory oversight, because in the end, you'll have to issue a token anyway. What you might say is that... [17:35] after the points have been given out to people that in order to redeem them maybe you need to KYC and prove you're not American which is what is the trend nowadays so maybe that's a way but we don't know because we haven't seen the terms yet but it could be actually now that I think of it that could be like you want to get as many people in as possible right [17:55] But you don't want to burden people with KYC on day one, because you want to avoid regulatory issues. So you give away. [18:02] you know, fake points, like not really non-existent, points with non-existent value at the moment. And then eventually when the time comes, [18:09] you give them a little kind of a requirement. So that could be potentially the case. When it comes to things that anger people. So I think a lot of people are angry because it kind of worked out. They just didn't see it coming. People have been working very hard for two years or three years building protocols. And this fucking guy walks in, throws a bunch of points, and it just worked out. But there's obviously, there's valid criticism in some things. Like, yeah, people. [18:31] There's maybe not enough transparency over who's on that multi-sig, but at the same time, [18:36] I think it's important to realize that Pacman's built a product before that was quite successful called Blur, who has effectively taken... [18:43] market share from OpenSea, the incumbent. And you know what people often, what institutions often do now, guys with really large sums of amount of capital, they actually give their money to institutional custody, they don't necessarily hold it themselves. They would often go to somebody like Copper, Fireblocks, these guys that effectively have a multi-sig of sorts already. They just don't know who these guys are. And they give them their money because they don't want to have the risk of being hacked or something like that. So a lot of the large players in the space

[19:13] of sorts. It's just that [19:15] Maybe in the case of Blast, maybe they've known exactly who's on that multi-sig beforehand. We don't know. [19:20] but they do. [19:21] And maybe that's where they were comfortable with that. And no one's forcing anyone to put the money into blast anyway, right? I think the thing that kind of annoyed people was a bit the... [19:29] Some people said it's a bit of a pyramid scheme kind of vibes because, um, [19:34] you get this referral link. But I don't see that as a problem. We've been doing referral links in crypto for a long time. No, it cared. I think it's just because [19:42] It doesn't seem like it's in the spirit of decentralization, but at the same time, most things that really work out in crypto. [19:47] and not completely 100% co-share [19:50] uh decentralized you know i mean like it's just um practical things work out in the end some hard truths you're hitting us with some hard truths um okay do you know anything about the on-chain points meme token that's launched in the past day no but now you told me i have to look it up okay yeah you gotta look it up um i my understanding i saw a really funny tweet that was like [20:13] the hipster side of crypto launched a meme coin last night. So I think it's like, I think it might be related to anyway, I am interested to know how this fits into the story. I think it might be like a [20:26] a mirror. [20:27] on the points that you're earning somewhere but like some on-chain version do you have any thoughts on rainbow points [20:34] Yeah, I've checked it out a bit. I'm very practical about this stuff. I want to see the application that gets the most users in TVO. So far, I think Blast has done the best job out there. I think Raybo's doing something interesting too, but...

[20:47] I'll be honest, I've been focusing more on things that have been kind of very successful so far. Because we're going to do points too, right? So we're looking at whatever kind of works out the most. Last seems to be the kind of thing. We have a pro point agenda here on the podcast this morning. [20:59] I respect it. Me too. I, I, it's not the conversation I was expecting. I, my experience thus far on, um, [21:07] Twitter and watching the points conversation has been, [21:10] The more degen you are, [21:13] the more... [21:15] you you hate points and i that's sort of been my experience of it watching it very passively and i guess i had assumed that you were more decent i guess but maybe there's even a case for like the further you go the more you're like you're just practical comes around in a circle [21:32] where you're such a DJ that you're then exactly to points. I think we have the myth curve is like, I hate points. Yeah. [21:43] Oh my gosh. Um, okay. That's, that's interesting. I saw a great tweet just as an aside from Stefan and Zick that said, it's always points, this points that, but what about a little forehead kiss? And that's honestly all I've been thinking about. [21:57] It's so good. It's so good. Yeah. I've seen actually really some interesting stuff with, um, [22:02] with points for example so people put in their money into blast right and they will get points but the lockups till february i believe [22:10] And I think you would get points in tokens even after that. So some people just creating liquid staking, [22:16] tokens around that claim so that if you put the money into blast

[22:20] uh you can sell the claim [22:22] because you can't withdraw so you just sell the claim on the market from let's say 90 cents to the dollar so you already start seeing kind of oh my god markets appearing around the lockups for points and stuff this is wild because there's no there's no it's not a functioning layer too yet like there's nothing that it this is purely speculative and i understand that that this person has built blur and that is a successful marketplace by many accounts and so i i totally [22:52] magic of speculation in this industry. Yeah, you make core assumptions as a farmer. You're looking at the opportunity cost. So what's nice about Blast in particular is that [23:04] You put an E into Blast. [23:07] That gets put into LIDA, which did gain lots of criticism, basically, because it increased LIDA's market share almost to 33%, which is supposedly important. And at the same time, you get yield on top of that. But you keep your upside in Ethereum. So if it skyrockets, you get the upside, you get the staking rate, and you get some points. Now, people are trying to calculate what's the implicit value of the points. [23:28] So what they're going to do is they're going to think, if that translates into the token, [23:33] what's the [23:34] valuation of the token of the project in total that we can expect and since you look at blast which is founded by pacmin they look at blur then they look at paradigm projects they probably do some multiple comparisons and say oh if it also gets listed on some exchange how much liquidity you're going to have to sell and you kind of estimate let's say that it's a billion dollars market cap and then you're thinking if i put in 50 million bucks am i getting basically something

[24:04] Because in staking, you get like, what, 5%? This is pretty good. So people go in. This is wild. That's the calculation. I have to say, this has crossed the line for me in people getting just way too creative with money. This is just too much creativity with money. I do just want to ask one more question about this. We have experimented with points a little bit in the Voice Club ecosystem, primarily just because we are experimenters in nature and want to like, there's all these interesting mechanisms [24:34] ways to reward people and so [24:36] Yeah, we played around with it. On a tiny scale. Oh. [24:50] Those points were on-chain, but not liquid and not transferable and all this sort of stuff. And so I'm curious with all of these different points programs that are coming out right now, it's just... [25:01] Sky Miles. It's just Sephora Beauty Insider. [25:05] Right? Like they're just internal databases where they're or are they on some sort of private blockchain? Like, how are they actually technically operating? [25:16] No, it's probably an extra sheet or something like that, to be fair. So it is a private blockchain. [25:21] if you'd like to cover that. I think one consideration you should have is that you kind of signal to the market that you're going to have a token one day. [25:29] so if you one day don't want to do that have to keep in mind the possible backlash from doing that and it really depends what you're trying to incentivize because uh i don't know exactly what you guys are trying to incentivize but us either it could be a great question actually what is what can i ask what is it you guys are kind of trying to do generally no you can't ask you can't i'm just kidding i think for us it was um the main thing that we were trying to

[25:59] the program is like engagement, like community engagement. And one of the things that we really realized is we have a super engaged community and we are really close to our community. We hang out online all the time. We hang out in person all the time. And like, if you're looking at like, quote unquote, the problems of boys club or the issues or areas where we're trying to solve for what we're solving, what we're, [26:23] primarily solving for our key objective is growth across all of our channels and all of these [26:28] properties. And so [26:31] points was like, oh, this is a great way to deepen loyalty with our community. But that's actually not like a primary point. [26:39] objective for the business at this moment. And so that's why we moved away from like really growing out that program and thinking about how we could bring in partners and make it more appealing to our community because there were other ways that we were providing value to the community outside of that. So that's sort of why we haven't invested in that. Not to say we wouldn't again in the future and not to say that we think there's other use cases for it, but there were more [27:01] pressing yeah needs of the business at, at, [27:04] that time and now. You could hear what we just said and say, well... [27:08] spin up a point system around referrals, like similar to how Blast is doing. But for us, [27:15] our community is so intimate and by design. And so like we actually, the growth actually isn't into the community that we're looking to drive. The growth is into our media channels. And so these are web two platforms. It just like gets to be,

[27:31] so that it's not as clean. I think that that's why it just doesn't make a ton of sense for us right now. [27:37] Yeah, I feel like points is a very DeFi-specific thing so far because... [27:41] Because you want to incentivize something very specific, which is mostly capital, trading volumes, not dumping when you farm things. When it comes to social clubs, it's a bit more difficult. There's probably maybe some NFT aspect you could implement, but it has to be financial in some way. Right. [27:58] And I think that that's what we feel some resistance to. Yeah, totally. Thank you so much. This was such a crash course, honestly, not only in points, but in like... [28:07] A whole side of the industry that I don't touch. I'm like, wow, people are like making money in crypto. [28:17] Couldn't be us. Yeah, not us. Clown town over here. Thank you so much. Cheers, guys. Thanks a lot. When you're first getting started with crypto, it can be scary. Am I doing this right? Is this just like my bank or trading app? How is it new and different? Well, that's why we love Kraken. They have a 24-7, 365 customer support team that's there to hold your hand all along the way. [28:37] This isn't a nine to five Monday to Friday bank. This is crypto. It's all the time. Anyone's welcome. Open door policy. Come one, come all. Try something new at kraken.com backslash boys club. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Cryptocurrency services are provided to U.S. and U.S. territory customers by Payward Ventures, Incorporated, PVI, DBA, Kraken.

[29:02] Okay, some personal feelings? [29:04] Yeah, it's been a really busy week for us launching the zine, throwing a zine party at Art Basel. [29:11] And... [29:13] I also want to say it's going to be a very busy week for us next week as well. We're launching another thing next week. So we are just relentless in launching. Team is down. Dina's sick. Miranda's sick. The shipping is taking a toll. It really is. On the body and soul. On the body and mind. [29:29] So... [29:30] The zine, let's just do some zine feelings. So we launched edition two of our zine. [29:36] our magazine, print magazine, and digital magazine. [29:39] Last week in Miami during our puzzle, we had, I don't know, maybe 20 contributors to this edition of the zine. My favorite part of the zine is the memes that... [29:51] For God section. [29:52] where we pulled in all of our favorite memes and into one spread. [29:59] and [30:00] This exists in the physical version. It also exists in the digital version. So if you want to peruse, I really recommend doing so. Also, we got to take some really, really, really beautiful portraits of very beautiful women in our... [30:14] orbit all doing really cool stuff they're all doing such cool different things from diana sinclair being a christy's featured artist and selling her piece for i think [30:25] $30,000 her piece went for this, this past week at our puzzle to Rachel Yeager, who has this cool agency called human. And she is like this, this,

[30:37] CPG e-commerce thinker and just like deeply creative and warm person and on a totally different corner of the internet to Diana Sinclair. Meltem who's like, [30:48] Bitcoin... [30:50] defy goddess goddess goddess to um yuri who does nail art she lives in japan and she does this incredible [31:04] nail art and her corner of the internet is all hers and it's just such an honor to be able to pull those folks in and and and amplify them and the [31:14] in the way that we can. And also the artists that came in, Maria, Paula, [31:22] the real MVP. She is like [31:24] I think the funniest person in... [31:27] on nft twitter like i i think she and the sharpest we had the pleasure of of [31:32] having her come to permissionless and she curated gremlin who's this really cool artist in la and does like weird internet art and then uh had a feature on maya man who's this incredible young [31:48] who's doing really interesting work around... [31:51] like digital art and... [31:53] expressions of femininity and just really so thoughtful and smart and funny and her work's incredible and [32:04] It's really fun to have a platform where you get to bring in people that you...

[32:10] Yeah. [32:26] They sold out very, very exciting and very grateful to people who supported that. About half the content is on the digital site. So you should go check it out. Boys club. VIP backslash. [32:38] additional two i don't know go to our website there's a link there boys clip dot vip and check it out it's incredible the work is so good it's really funny um [32:48] And a real... [32:51] Fun representation of our community and really thoughtful representation of the people that are thinking and building on this internet that we love. Just want to do a quick shout out to the partners that came in on the zine. [33:05] Made it possible. Incredible partners and without whom we wouldn't be able to do this work. Incredible. This is what funded... [33:12] the production of the zine the actual it's printed paper you know there's some i don't know if you guys have heard but we're a bootstrapped organization uh so there's yeah all sorts of like very hard production costs that are involved with making magazine and uh so our partners are like really really critical to it happening [33:35] Luxo [33:37] incredible they came in as our mint partner as well so every zine has a unique code that represents its digital twin when you mint it luxo came in with us on that then we had console which is like the web3 communications app the kind of discord killer they came in leather wallet which is a

[34:01] Read, write, own. His book is coming out and they graciously put an ad in the zine around. So cool of them. Shout out to Sherry from the A16Z crypto team. She is so cool and so fun and so supportive. And I couldn't. [34:19] I couldn't love her more. That was a cool thing for them. That was a very cool thing for them to do. And then finally serotonin, our partner's there. So it's just been like incredible to see like... [34:28] A lot of people say, oh, we want to support Boys Club and stuff like that. But like this is an actual very tangible. Like this is a way to support the community and doing a project together that it makes a big difference. So really grateful for them. [34:41] Now, should we talk about some feelings? Yes. [34:45] It's strange. [34:47] Because... [34:50] Thank you. [34:51] it's, [34:53] objectively a win for boys club and the, [34:58] It's so great to see. And when you work, [35:02] really hard and then... [35:05] That's well received. [35:07] It's... [35:08] really nice. And... [35:11] Feels really good. But I have felt... [35:14] a real like vulnerability hangover for the past few days. Majorly. I'm just like, I feel really exposed. I feel like... [35:23] We're really putting ourselves out there. [35:26] And... [35:28] When you do that, [35:30] You create...

[35:32] more surface area for... [35:35] Yeah. [35:36] Inbound of all kinds. [35:39] And... [35:40] from like [35:42] fair... [35:44] criticism and feedback. [35:46] That is... [35:48] right and good and part of the process to just like trolls who suck and are mean and like, [35:56] don't really give a shit about them at all. [35:59] But like the spectrum of that experience is... [36:05] really hard to not fixate on. [36:07] And really hard to not fixate on areas where we fell short or areas we, where we didn't deliver or we, [36:16] or we made mistakes and... [36:20] I have found myself... [36:23] Just... [36:25] having a really hard time accepting the good stuff. [36:29] around it. Totally. [36:30] I'm kind of struggling with like how to talk about this specific feeling because there was something that happened with the zine launch that didn't go... [36:38] well and [36:41] it was a result of... [36:44] Someone on our team... [36:45] made a mistake and ultimately... [36:49] You and I are responsible for that. Talking about it on this podcast, it's one thing for you and I to come on here and talk about our feelings and our fuck ups, like which we'll do all day long, but I don't want to point to any people and make them feel bad or whatever. So I don't want to talk about like the specific thing here. But just to say that there was something that didn't go.

[37:05] the way that we wanted it to go. And in a moment where it was like, [37:10] We... [37:11] We're in Vogue Business. We had an incredible launch party. The zines sold out. There's all these measures of success. And I feel like this is just the human condition to... [37:22] ignore all the good things that happen. Like I, I like don't even see the good things that happen. And I'm just focused on like, here's where we fucked up. And that's all I've been thinking about. And to your point about feeling exposed, feel so exposed, but it's also like, I [37:38] I don't know how to change the brain chemistry where I'm able to... [37:44] fixate on the good things. [37:46] Yeah. Like, it's just, like, fixating on the bad things. And... [37:51] I... [37:53] Like that sucks. Yeah. And maybe we just need a break and we need to log off and get some perspective. Like that's probably what we need to do. But I am realizing that. [38:05] as Boys Club grows, there will be a difficulty in us being able to be... [38:14] as transparent and honest as I would like to be. [38:17] To be, I think, on this podcast where it feels really disingenuous to come on here and be like... [38:22] Everything about the zine launch was amazing. I'm so happy and so grateful. Everything's so great. Like, what a win. [38:29] When like... [38:31] That's not the full experience of it. Yeah, totally. And hopefully we will continue to be able to expand and grow and have...

[38:39] many people contributing and many people participating and, [38:42] As that happens... [38:45] It. [38:47] It's not our story anymore. Like it's a shared story. And then it becomes really difficult to be like, how do we talk about these things in a way that's true to us and our experience and, um, [38:59] what we're thinking about and struggling with and feeling. [39:03] And how do we continue to share in that with our community and with the people that [39:08] are part of voice club in a way that's like respectful to everybody and honors the work and [39:14] the output. [39:15] So yeah, I've been feeling like not a great week. [39:20] like I felt I've, I've the feeling of like, I'm in trouble and, and, [39:26] Everybody hates me. [39:28] has been the main feeling. [39:31] This week. Yeah. And that sucks when... That actually... To be really, like... [39:39] real with myself that actually has nothing to do with the fuck up. [39:43] That's amazing. [39:44] My inability... [39:46] to... [39:48] separate [39:51] this thing that happened with the way that I am in the world. [39:56] Like there's a different type of person who would have been like, oh yeah, that thing was wrong and we fixed it. And... [40:02] It's totally fine. And I'm moving on. And not everybody hates me. That's a crazy, crazy thing to like conclusion to come to when you make a mistake. But I think...

[40:13] That is the experience for me. [40:15] Yeah, I think it's also compounded with the fact that we, at our events, we're, [40:21] we see and we meet so many people. I leave a lot of those encounters with folks thinking like, I hope that, [40:29] I didn't disappoint them in that conversation. [40:32] And so like the next morning you and I are like, okay, where, where were the social fumbles that we made? [40:38] And where did things not go exactly right? And it's almost like you feel out of your body. [40:45] I'm like watching myself. [40:46] And... [40:48] So she's a fucking idiot. Just an idiot. And like, [40:52] I feel that way. I'm like, shut up. Just stop talking. Okay. I just want to do a quick shout out to the partners that came in on the, the, [41:02] party at our puzzle. We had an incredible, really, really, really well produced event. Shout out to the production team year round and Miranda, who just relentless, tireless, incredible, creative. So hard. [41:15] And I just want to say about the year round team. [41:18] First of all, Lincoln... [41:20] show notes. [41:21] if you're looking for a production partner they're incredible we've never had a production partner [41:26] And it's a night and day experience. [41:29] They worked so hard and it is really nice to, [41:33] when you have partners who really give a shit. [41:36] And like, [41:38] I felt a shared sense of care and responsibility. Like I care so much. I care about every little thing. I care about every drink. I care about every little corner, every little moment. And I,

[41:50] they brought that same care to this event and it means genuinely the world. Like, [41:56] I couldn't, [41:57] Love them more. So hit them up if you're looking for a production partner, but don't give them too much work because I want them to keep working. [42:06] We had Liquid Death at the party, Off Limits, Shirley, Ramona, 2NA Beverages, Sip, Spoonish, Casaloo, [42:17] Which is tequila. [42:19] Mmm. [42:20] It was good. And yeah, year round who were incredible. So yeah, I don't know. Kind of a bummer of a podcast, I guess. But as mixed this week has felt, [42:32] Around just feeling exposed and feeling... [42:34] like shipping is hard and intense and, [42:40] taxing if you care about it. Like if you really care about it, there's something that feels like you have a hangover after you put something out into the world. And yeah, [42:48] But like the feeling I am left with the most, like the strongest feeling I have is like, I can't believe. [42:53] this is my job. We get to build this business and we get to be creative and we get to highlight people that we love and respect and want to see celebrated in the world. And, you know, [43:03] I think after a long week that has felt like, wow, there's a lot of work and there's a lot more coming and, you know, [43:08] the... [43:10] the schedule that we have put ourselves on is really demanding at the same time to hold that against [43:19] that the work is so fun.

[43:22] is... [43:23] the feeling that I want to like sit with and not the feeling of like, [43:27] while some things about having your own business are really hard. So I'm grateful to all of you who listen to this podcast and who care enough to buy a zine and... [43:38] who care enough to read the work that people have put together and... [43:43] it's really special. So I'm grateful. [43:45] Maybe. [43:46] Okay.