A Post-Token World | David Phelps, jokerace

[00:00] Wait, wait, wait, say that line again. You gotta say that line again. Okay, okay. You have to laugh though. [00:06] Welcome to Boys Club Interviews. This is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. Just Boys Club. [00:24] Hi. Natasha, what is Voice Club? Oh, Voice Club is a social collective that is bringing new voices to the new internet. [00:32] or or. [00:36] We are a lifestyle business and media company. [00:40] A lifestyle brand. [00:42] Right. [00:43] I think lifestyle business means something else. A lifestyle brand means... [00:48] What does it mean? [00:50] I was about to fire up google.com to see what the official definition is. Yeah, I think that that's why we stopped doing that bit was because we just got too practiced. [01:00] Yeah, Boys Club is... [01:02] We're a drops business. We're a D to C commerce business. We're drop shippers. [01:10] We're drop shippers. [01:14] We are a Walmart reseller. [01:18] Anyway, we're lots of things. We're honestly, all we really are is just a lot of fun. [01:24] There it is. There it is. We have this podcast where we interview interesting people who are building in and around and on the new internet. And...

[01:33] thinking about how people create and coordinate. And we had a great guest on today. Who did we have on? Do you know? [01:39] We had David Phelps on the podcast today. David is the co-founder of Joke Race Network. [01:47] and... [01:48] is just an all around good time guy. [01:52] Good time guy. Very smart. Very, very cogent thinking on this space and what's possible and what he's building and how people should be thinking about creativity and even more so than creativity. Like, [02:08] doing things together online. [02:11] Yeah, he thinks a lot about the plumbing for how all the tools of Web3 kind of fit together in a way that... [02:22] makes it so people [02:25] can work together and have fun together in ways that weren't possible before. So he calls himself post token. [02:32] which I kind of thought was great. We do mention... [02:36] that Boys Club is... [02:39] And was an investor. I would like to say that that investment was four figures. [02:44] - [02:45] And the absolute smallest amount that four figures could be. So it's a teensy tiny... [02:51] I allowed us to say angel investors. If we were a certain type of dude, I would be like co-founder of boys club, angel investor, you know, if I was a certain type of dude. So anyway, had to disclose. Both of us disclose. You had half to disclose. Yeah. We, uh, four figure investment and that investment.

[03:14] came from the Boys Club Dow Treasury. It was a proposal that was passed by the Dow. It is our first [03:22] investment as a Dow [03:25] Are we set up legally to have made that investment? [03:29] I don't know. I do not know the answer to that question. Do I know how we're going to... [03:36] deal with all the paperwork around that investment. [03:39] No. [03:40] TBD. Tea. [03:43] B. D. Give it a listen. Hey, Natasha, if someone wants to get into crypto or is looking for a better way to trade, where should they go? Oh, Dina, I'm so glad you asked. The place to be is Kraken. It's more than a crypto platform. Kraken is your bridge to the new world of finance. A simple, gorgeous place to trade with a redesigned trading interface that's so easy to use. From degen to day trader, first timer to full timer, make your trades in just a few clicks. [04:13] We love you, Kraken. [04:20] Okay, so on today's show, we have internet personality, I'd say, and co founder of joke race, David Phelps. Welcome to the show, David. I think that means I have no personality in real life. I only have internet personality like AI, you know, bot, basically. That's cool. I like that. [04:39] I think it's appropriate. I think it kind of works. Yeah, I finally find the personality just only on Twitter, outside of that generic vanilla and anodyne as usual. I told Dina when we were in Paris, she was like, oh, I'm having a meeting with David this week, and we're going to talk about Joe Grace. And I was like, cool.

[04:57] And I was like, it's really funny because I follow you on Twitter, obviously. And Boys Club is an investor. And I was like, oh, it's so funny because his personality on Twitter is really doesn't give a fuck. Just funny and out there and hot takes and whatever. And Dino was like, yeah, I don't think he does give a fuck. And I was like, but then I get his investor updates into the inbox. And I'm like, this guy really gives a fuck. Like, he's really working hard. Okay, that means I'm fucking up the investor updates. That's not good. No, no. [05:27] My experience of it was very positive. So just so you know, I was so pleased to see it. The craft of acting like you don't give a fuck. It's hours that I work with my managers on my team on each one of them. Trying to make sure that it has the perfect level of not giving a fuckness. Right. [05:45] Right. We're going to play a explain the tweet with some of these don't give a fuck tweets. So Dina, I feel like you should. Let's get started. Yeah, let's go. We jump right in. We will get into joke race and some of your other hot takes. Maybe you want to grill me and roast me, right? That's the. For some reason, you are inviting a roast. I'm not quite sure why, but it does feel like it's in the air. Okay. We're going to play explain the tweet with you. Explain the tweet for new listeners is when we take one of our guests. [06:12] popular or inscrutable tweets and we have them explain it to us and unpack it for us. Like explain what I was on when I like wrote the tweet or explain the actual like content. Exactly. Up for artist interpretation of how to explain them. Perfect. Sounds good. Okay. So I'm going to read out the tweet and then I'm going to first get Natasha's level of comprehension on it and then we'll get into your explanation of it.

[06:35] So you tweeted this on June 29th. [06:38] Building communities based on tokens is an incredible premise. Like imagine creating a friend group entirely based not on shared interests or projects or work, but just on the fact that you all purchase the same thing. [06:51] Quote, fuck yes, I met my besties because we all buy Charmin Ultrasoft. And it's a photo. [06:57] of sort of two people in line with both like a costco like a yeah and like a costco setting with huge it's not yeah i remember this tree it's kirkland it's not charman i was a little disappointed and you know the discontinuity but yeah so that's where we are in the world natasha what's your level of comprehension this week [07:13] My level of comprehension is very high. I'm understanding. I'm tracking. We're headed to FWB Fest now. [07:19] next week. And it's a perfect encapsulation, I think, of this tweet and a little testing ground of what that looks like IRL. But I'd love for you to give your context on what you mean here. And I'm hoping it opens up a conversation for us around incentive structures, hot takes on tokens, and what that means for people working collectively. But curious what you meant by this. Am I allowed to ask your take on the tweet since your comprehension seems high? Okay, you're going to put me on the spot. Okay, so what I'm taking from this is we had this [07:50] movement where people were going to gather around an idea and distribute tokens around that idea. [07:58] And you're [07:59] purchasing, you're actually buying into it. And I think what you're sort of highlighting here is that there's [08:04] something broken in the model. We missed something in that movement that happened and like,

[08:10] with FWB or Boys Club never launched a token, but if we had launched a token, [08:14] So that's sort of my take. Yeah. Great take. I think, you know, consumption over the past hundred years has increasingly become a primary point of identity for a lot of people. Like what you consume defines who you are. Right. This is like a major theme of the 20th century. You see this a lot. If you step, I would say. [08:32] into either really rich or really poor people's houses. They tend to look the same. If you're really poor, you can only afford certain things, right? So you buy the cheapest thing. But if you're really rich, it's this really interesting thing that happens where it's like, now you have all this money, you're supposed to buy into the lifestyle of being really rich. And so all the really rich people just buy the same things as each other. And there's no marker of individual taste or identity in most billionaires' homes. And so they're defined by consumption as a class [09:02] And so it's this interesting thing with tokens where it's like the ultimate kind of endpoint of that, which is like, let's base an entire community around the fact that we all bought the same thing, which is the token. But, you know, even in these other cases, like what you're buying is not just money. You're buying an actual object, right, that is like supposed to speak to your taste. NFT communities, I think, would be similar to that. You buy an NFT, you're buying an object.

[09:32] But what's the community behind that, right? There are cases where you have people who do buy into a community, and it's been very successful, like country clubs, right? And whenever this happens, it's just for rich people. Rich people buy out, you know, gala tickets, or they buy out country club memberships, and you're supposed to be there to show that you are basically a rich person who just wants to spend all your time with other rich people. There are at least certain identifiers in your lifestyle, like you play golf, or you play tennis, or you're a horseback ride. [10:02] that community together. And then buying the membership, the token to that is a means to achieve that shared lifestyle. And so I think we can be pretty critical of that, that like a great way to build community is just to sell tickets to it. But you reach this incredible endpoint with. [10:15] the token communities because it's like you're buying into the community without even having the shared lifestyle. Like you don't even get the horseback riding or the golf, right? Or the tennis. All you get is the token. And then from that, you're supposed to somehow extrapolate a community. And it just feels like this like really sick kind of twisted endpoint to community building where like, I'm much more excited about doing it, not just with a shared lifestyle, but without it being something that you necessarily buy into. I'd actually love to hear from both the

[10:45] - Yeah. [10:46] It hasn't done this. It's been really carefully curated, right? Not based on who can buy in, but like who you actually want to be in the community. Yeah, that tracks. I would say that there was a few moments right when we formed the DAO and as we were sort of getting things started more formally within the community that we were considering it, especially we did an NFT sale within that [11:08] the sort of strategizing was like, do we have the zaddy, [11:12] have you sort of buy access to the discord. We were like, do we build this into the roadmap? Do we have that be part of the utility of this zaddy thing? Ultimately, we were like, I don't think that that makes sense where people are buying into [11:24] I... [11:25] group chat because then [11:27] We have no idea who these people are. So I think we had... [11:31] that sense. [11:33] instinctually, but I will say we left a lot of money on the table in doing so as well for what it's worth. I think that that's probably what would be the downside and what the tradeoff was at that moment, especially when the market was what it was. But yeah, that's kind of always been our sense at Boys Club, recognizing that our treasury probably doesn't look the same as a lot of these other projects do as a result. I mean... [11:53] Sure, you can like monetize by releasing an NFT, but then it's like people are buying it so that they can be with other people who bought it. And generally, if you're buying it to be with other people who bought it, it's because you're spending a lot of money because you want to be with other people who spend a lot of money. In other words, you're rich and you want to be with other rich people. Right. So it's like there's the values issue. But I think the other one that doesn't get talked about as much as like it's a one time thing. [12:15] Like you only get that revenue once and then you have to build an entire organization forever

[12:22] off of that without really being able to drive any value back to the token holders either, because that's not really legal. I don't know, I think about like FWB, for example, it's like, man, if FWB could get royalties from every time someone's selling their token, that would just be such a better model for them. And so I don't know, like, you only get the money once being forced to actually think, hey, how do we create [12:43] recurring revenue. It's like a ghost term that you're not supposed to talk about within Web3. It seems insane. It's like we have 10 years of SaaS telling us that you need to build recurring revenue and just no one wants to do it. Totally. I think a part of the premise of [12:58] tokenized communities was [13:01] you are building [13:03] incentive structure... [13:04] with a larger group of people who are incentivized to [13:09] either hold or produce within the context of that community and collectively create value together. And that is a really appealing premise to me. I think that that has not worked in most cases. And I think most people have... [13:25] felt the difficulty of how hard it is to create value in the world. And, [13:31] I still have a part of me that's hopeful that we can do that through tokens or digital receipts or collectibles or some other version of on-chain activity. I'm curious, your perspective on this. Yeah, I think I'm getting a reputation these days for being like the anti-token guy, which is pretty fun. [13:47] It's fun to be in an industry where I'm like, [13:50] every way you've all made money is wrong.

[13:54] That's like a fun role to play. But I'm not actually anti-token, unfortunately. I'm post-token is what I'm trying to identify as. I'm not anti-modern, I'm post-modern, okay? I'm sorry. The way I think about it is tokens do serve some really valuable roles. And at the end of the day, even being able to monetize anything, there has to be some token there that is serving as a currency. So maybe that's ETH or USDC. [14:18] But at the very, very least, there are some canonical tokens that are really important. [14:21] Using them as economic security for proof-of-stake systems is really important. Potentially, if we don't run into securities issues, being able to drive royalties and dividends to them is really important. I was talking to Loro Jaramillo, who's the founder of Sona this morning. What she's doing with tokens is really, really cool, giving you a proportionate share of royalties on music that you create. So tokens absolutely serve really, really important value here. I just don't think they're the only source of value. And when you get into that mindset that the only way to make money is... [14:51] is through tokens and you get locked in those mindsets of like ICOs and one-time sales and this kind of cash grabs, right? Where it's like Azuki just has to keep doing one cash grab after another because there's no recurring revenue in what they've built. You know, no shade on Azuki. We have built these really powerful financial rails that can be used for any purpose you want. So like you think about what we're building with Joke Race where you have awards that are given out to winners of a contest. So you run a hackathon through us or you run a grants program through us [15:21] us and it's like the winners all get paid out the rewards.

[15:24] That wasn't possible in Web2. If you look at the Web2 hackathon sites, you're just trusting that someone's going to pay you at the end of the day. And they can try to do like a Stripe integration, but it is messy. You can't let anybody just fund that. You can't just build a treasury where you can get a bunch of sponsors, throw money, and then create more incentives for people to do it. Like that permissionless money system... [15:45] just doesn't exist in Web2 to be able to actually pay people. It's crazy to me that people think projects having tokens is the only way to monetize, because that's the only way we have monetized. [15:55] When it's like, dude, we've created an entire financial rail to be able to pay people for any service online that didn't exist before. And not only that, it carries all of these other tools along with it of social... [16:06] Incentives, reputational incentives, ability to automatically interoperate, [16:10] from one service to the other to execute. All of that is massively monetizable as well. We've built just an incredible innovation for getting people paid for services, and no one cares about that. No one is interested in that because the one-time cash grab of being able to make a million dollars an hour from a drop is so much more appealing to us than the hard work of building a 10-year business that gradually accumulates a little bit of money every day. [16:40] The ultimate opportunity isn't the latter. We're just locked into the short-termism of this space that we've ignored, I think, the actual potential of what we're building. [16:47] Okay, I want to say for the record, we're not dumping on Friends with Benefits or any of these tokenized communities. I love RWB. We love them. We're going to Fest next weekend. I think that they have built something very, very cool.

[16:57] I also want to say that we made the decision [16:59] not to tokenize and don't actually feel regret about not getting rich in that moment. We're joking. So I just want to be like crystal clear that we're totally at peace. I love all of these communities and I don't think they've been greedy at all. I think they've paved the way for us to really see both what works really well, as well as where some of the issues are. And to their credit, they're all aware of this and they're working on it too, right? Like none of the communities we mentioned, like even Azuki, I think you can be skeptical about some of the recent drops, but like there are people there who are really thinking about this and they're working on it, right? [17:29] Joke Race, you went into the mechanics of it before, but I think just a simple definition for folks would be great. Cool. So Joke Race is a platform for anybody to be able to launch a contest. The way a contest works is you put a prompt to a community, [17:42] People can respond to the prompt, people can vote on their favorite responses, and then the winners can earn rewards from a rewards pool that you can configure however you want. And so you can deploy a contest on any chain that you're connected to in your wallet. We support any EVM chain. [17:55] I think we have something like close to 40 right now. It takes us two minutes to add more. And what this means is within any format of people responding and then people voting on responses, you cannot do this fully on chain. So that could be anything from like, [18:07] your yearbook contest about who has the best legs, to a film festival about what film wins, to a hackathon, to a grants program, to incubate projects, to creating a decentralized product hunt, or even doing prediction games about what you think is going to happen this week. You can do elections, you can do bounties, you can do RFPs, you can do full governance for DAOs. All of this is possible within those formats because it's totally up to you to customize

[18:32] who gets to submit and who gets to vote. And so it's really fun to think about opening up that design framework. Traditionally in governance, it's always been locked in where it's like only a core team submits and then a community all votes. [18:43] And what we've done is we've allowed that to be customized to whoever you want. So if the whole community wants to submit and vote, that's possible. If a whole community submits and then just a jury votes, that's possible. If one community submits and a different community votes, that's also possible. And so there's just a lot of experimentation you can do within decision making for the official definition of what we build, a contest for communities to make, execute, and reward decisions. I'm trying to understand what the benefit is for it being on-chain, and it's really about that latter part, [19:13] potentially that that can happen programmatically is that [19:17] where we're at in terms of why we'd want this on chain? Or is it because it's immutable and transparent and stuff like that? [19:23] Thanks for asking that. That's such a key question. So I think there's kind of four pillars to why it's better long-term to build on chain, even though short-term there's headaches involved with getting people to like get a wallet and pay gas fees. Right. And so one is what you just said, right? It's the financial piece. So, so financial incentives. [19:37] The fact that you can easily create these permissionless pools for anybody to get rewarded. You start a contest to say, "Hey, I want to build this thing. I want to build this new boys club portal. Who wants to build it?" And you define whatever it is. Other people get excited about it. They might add to the rewards pool as well to increase the honeypot for people to participate. [19:57] So the initial contest is... [20:00] the creator of the contest putting in some sort of financial incentive to start the contest, or could you do it without a financial reward? You can run contests without any rewards pool at all if you want. So you just want to do elections or decisions, that's totally fine. I would say about half our contests have no rewards attached to them. Only the creator of the contest right now can create a rewards pool, but they don't have to fund it. So they could also create a rewards pool saying like 60% goes to first place, 30% goes to second place, 10% goes to third place, and then anyone else can come along and fund it. So if you want to do like sponsored contests,

[20:30] the boys club community is all gonna like participate [20:32] in this project for your community to tell you what we think, [20:36] You put up the bounty money and then Boys Club will participate. And now you found a way to monetize for Boys Club. So to go back to your question about how do you monetize communities, that's one, right? So financial incentives is like the lowest hanging fruit here, right? Like we all know blockchains are really good for financial incentives and programmatic money. But I would actually say like it gets really exciting too when you start to think about some of the other pieces. So reputational incentives, right? When you are participating in a contest, you're building out a lot of on-chain data about yourself in a way that can be really powerful. [21:06] that's on Chain Through Us, and Vitalik is on the jury, right? And Vitalik votes for you. You don't win the hackathon, but you have this powerful attestation that Vitalik liked you or liked your project and that you're a meaningful builder. So that's now something that not only can you go around and bandy that and say, yeah, you know, I'm like, you know, Vitalik's boy, but like... [21:25] anyone can find that data and reward it. So if people want to do airdrops in the future, [21:30] Right now they're doing airdrops to a bunch of airdrop farmers who are the actual worst people that you could put your token into the hands of because they're going to ban your project the moment they get it. Now you actually have this qualitative metrics to say, hey, this is a meaningful builder. This is someone who actually provided value. And you can start to think about other really cool stuff you can do with that reputational data too, where you could be like, hey, these people tend to vote the same. So there's all these contests every week we do on what's your favorite album. And you notice that these two people tend to vote a lot.

[22:00] Right. Maybe there's some connection there, but also if one of those has a bunch of NFTs in their wallet, [22:06] of pudgy penguins, you might say to the other one, well, maybe their taste is going to correlate to that too. And maybe pudgy penguins wants to like now [22:13] find that other person too. And so building up this on-chain reputation gives you this really powerful data tool for yourself that can get you a lot of access and opportunities as well that just was not possible when data was siloed, right, in Web2. [22:27] Then I would say the, probably the most contentious and the hardest one here is social incentives. So I gave an example before where it's like, you might want to meet other people who tend to vote on the same things as you. And so I think thinking about it, like how can, how can we long-term build something that's closer to a Twitch gamified experience where people actually want to collaborate with each other? Maybe they want to trade votes. Maybe they want to negotiate. Maybe they want a scheme to win. [22:48] Actually creating a gamified experience is powerful for people to play because they can do all these programmatic things with the votes and with the collusion, right? That was how the whole project started was I was like, you know, DAOs are really good at acquiring users through tokens, but they're really bad at retaining them. [23:03] for the exact same reason, which is everyone comes and then they have nothing to do. And they have no social relationships. So like the way this whole thing started was this weekly contest for bad jokes. Would people actually be incentivized to collude with each other where they had to form social relationships in order to win? None of them would have enough votes on their own, so they had to work together. [23:21] to try to win. And so like, that's, that's how I still think it's like, you know, long-term, what gets really fun about this is creating social incentives for people to actually have to play together in a way that they can find each other and trade data using, using the blockchain, right? That wasn't really possible before either. And final final, and then I'll stop showing the final thing I'd say is executability. The fact that anything you do on chain.

[23:43] can automatically interoperate with any other service. So you can imagine long term if you do stuff like, hey, [23:48] Who do we add to the multi-sig? And that's a contest. [23:51] that person is automatically added to the multi-sig, right, when they win. The fact that any sort of action can, you know, maybe automatically creates an NFT if you win, right, or maybe it automatically deploys money to buy an NFT if you win. You can start interoperating with every service out there where we can almost be like a base layer for people to make decisions and then for that to execute across all these other services. Because the blockchain is almost, it's like an open API. It's like anything you do, anyone else can pick up on that and build on top of it. [24:21] platform, but it's really a protocol. Anybody can build on top of us for the results of votes. [24:25] to trigger actions on their own services too. You know, none of this was really possible in Web2. And this is like where it gets really, really exciting to build in crypto. Cool. [24:34] I love a thoughtful explanation of why put it on chain, because I think there's often times where we're looking at it and it doesn't make any sense. Well, there are also a lot of reasons not to do it on chain. [24:52] Four Pillars and what sort of new [24:55] opportunity it brings to actual people and businesses and collaboration in general and where there's actual applications for, um, [25:05] people to... [25:06] do interesting things in the world or online together in a way that's more efficient and not less efficient. [25:12] through blockchain tech which or less efficient but more fun right like no game is efficient every game is massively inefficient you have to go around in circles over and over again that's why we like

[25:23] So... [25:25] One thing that we're thinking a lot about at Boys Club is how we... [25:29] gamify the experience of sharing and participating in media properties. So we have this podcast, we have the newsletter, we have events, we have all these sort of like different properties where. [25:41] We have this group of... [25:43] amazing community members who are sort of like evangelists for boys club. And right now there's no, [25:49] apart from them [25:51] just the joy of doing it and feeling like they're participating in part of the community, which they are. [25:57] There's no upside for them. There's no incentive for them to do that. And we would love to see a way where you're gaining points or rewards or whatever it is for participation and engagement of these channels and sharing and liking and listening and all these sort of things. You then come up against two big questions. One being, how do you ask people to do new behaviors that are... [26:23] not [26:25] common, they're like a new way to engage. And then the second is how do you, [26:30] protect against really weird incentives where people are like getting compensated [26:35] in some not financial asset, but some reward for like sharing or tweeting and it being [26:42] about that reward as opposed to actually sharing [26:45] because you enjoy something. Yeah, like an MLM adjacent. [26:49] X environment. And I guess it's a question about like, especially when it comes to on-chain media and sort of asking

[26:56] an audience or community to take an on-chain action. It's a new thing for people to do. And there's gas and it's complicated and there's all this friction. Do you think that scales or what is needed in order for that to scale, given it's like a new, a new ask of a consumer? [27:12] What do we mean by scale? Do we mean scale within a community or do you mean scale like a lot of communities start doing this? A lot of communities are doing it. We're all doing it because we're crypto native and we're here and we're building in this space. So we like to experiment and have fun with voting on podcasts and stuff like that. [27:27] It's hard and it's complicated and I don't know what it's going to take in order for people who don't go to eat Denver and ECC to take that type of action. [27:35] So I'm not convinced this is new behavior. Concerts, people sing along at the concert, right? Yeah, there's an artist on stage and the artist wrote the song, but the fans come so that they can sing along, right? You go to church, it's like the preacher's preaching, but everyone in the congregation is singing along. A lot of times the congregation has an opportunity to come up and speak, right? They... [27:55] have moments where they're allowed to come and participate and be seen by everyone there as well. Strong community is usually based on making everyone feel seen. [28:03] And a lot of that is not just that they recognize themselves in the main speaker or the main artist that they've congregated around in their community, but that they themselves have a chance to co-create and to participate. And so I think we've existed in this kind of 20th century norm [28:18] where we've had celebrities that have reached mass scale across mass media [28:23] And there's been no possibility of us to co-create or work with them at all. And even so, you would have people in the 1950s who would create the Lon Turner fan club in their local town because they wanted to have some agency over...

[28:37] this fandom. I think about like Phish concerts, right? Where it's like people would record it and then a big ritual for Phish, you know, for the Phish heads is in the 80s and 90s, they would drive around and trade cassettes with each other. [28:48] You have all these behaviors where it's like fan to fan engagement is a really, really important part of community building as well. [28:57] I don't think it's really new behavior. Like, I think the idea that fans or community members are participating in the creation of works is really fundamental to human behavior. That, like, we all want to have agency and be part of this thing that excites us. The artist I'm really most interested in right now as a business person is Fred again. Fred again is going and basically doing what we've built. Like, Fred again is going and having contests for fans to say, hey, you know, I created this track, but it's not done. Do you want to complete it? [29:27] then all the fans are rushing to try to get their sample heard and they're remixing it and they're all participating basically in a contest to create Fred again's next song. When you go to a community and you say, hey, you have a chance to actually have meaningful engagement here. You have a chance to actually have your voice heard. It's new behavior because we're not used to doing it. The new behavior is using a wallet and it's paying gas and it's bridging the gas over and like that's all the stuff we're working to abstract away because that is very challenging UI UX. And I think that that is difficult. [29:57] But the opportunity to actually meaningfully participate and then like gamify it with, you know, maybe there's rewards at play, maybe there's not. [30:04] that are financial, but the chance to have your voice heard alone is going to be very, very meaningful to people. If you did one of these contests for musicians where you put a track and they remixed the work, and it's like the jury is going to be five major music producers, right? I think everyone would even pay to participate in something like that just for the chance to have their work heard. Ultimately, people do not want to be passive. People do not want to just passively imbibe content and just consume it.

[30:31] they want to create. And it's like, [30:34] We don't need more evidence of that after the user generated like massive movement of the past 10 years. I think what we saw with the past decade was like everybody wants to create, but they don't have communities to do it in. And so the next step of that is thinking, well, now how can we enable co-creation? How can we lower the barrier of friction to creation? Using stuff like this as a mechanism, I think it's very fundamental to human nature. So I'm going to say no, no, that's not new behavior. That's old behavior. We just forgot it. [31:02] Yeah, I think that's really good insight. [31:05] For a lot of people, it's about feeling seen and heard in that content creation. And I think the work is much more interesting and much more fun when it's... [31:14] co-created together. So, [31:17] Yeah, I love that as a [31:18] as a framing for it. We're going to transition now. We were intellectuals for 30 minutes, but now we got to play three minutes of Smasher Pass for new listeners. Yeah. [31:26] It's, will you smash this concept or pass on this concept? There's not any humans in here. We're not going that direction. Smash or pass. [31:34] Whirlcoin. [31:35] Pass. [31:36] Okay. [31:37] Great. Solana. [31:39] Smash. [31:40] Interesting. Smash or pass Huberman. [31:43] I have to choose one? [31:45] Yeah. Not him personally, his philosophy, like the lifestyle, the Huberman lifestyle. [31:51] I feel like being controversial today. I want to cause some chaos. I'm going to go with pass. No one goes with pass on Huberman. I'm going to go with pass on Huberman. Let's go. [32:00] I mean, I think humor is pretty valuable, right? Like what human is doing is overall probably not good for that. Good.

[32:06] But [32:07] The idea that you can always have these kind of heuristics that you can just fall upon that will cure your life and tell you how to live and that everyone should follow these doctrines. Like we know enough to know that like bodies all work really differently from each other. Like like personalized medicine is a thing for a reason. And. [32:24] to kind of, you know, like Hubertin as a concept, like the way that people have just formed a doctrine around all of this. [32:30] I think we should be skeptical. I love go off on your rent. Okay. Threads. Pass. [32:36] Okay. Okay. Smash or pass. [32:38] Bitcoin. [32:40] Uh, Bitcoin Smash. Okay. [32:42] So again, this is not the person. This is the culture around it. [32:47] Taylor Swift. [32:49] you know it's just too indelible i have to say pass because it's just like thank god thank god it's too sweet it just feels too sweet to say pass despite the fact of me having no feelings whatsoever on this topic it just it feels so good it feels so good okay and on that we're done david thank you so much for coming on this is so fun i wasn't expecting the conversation that we had but i'm so glad that we had it was great my pleasure thank you guys [33:19] Kraken is a crypto OG. They have more than 10 million clients around the world that trust them with their crypto needs. They're one of the largest crypto platforms out there with some of the highest security standards in the industry. So you can rest easy that your funds and your privacy are safe for the keeping. And if you need help along the way, as we all do sometimes, Kraken's award-winning client support team is available 24-7 every day of the year. This is a true story. I've actually hit them up a few times with very dumb questions about our account.

[33:49] And they were so nice and so patient. It just takes a few minutes to get started today at kraken.com backslash boys club. [33:55] Draft tweets? Yeah, I have one. I actually thought I had another one. I think maybe I have to check on a different account. [34:02] Oh, I have two. [34:03] Dos. [34:04] The first one you've told me I can't post. [34:08] But I've talked to a few people and I think it is funny. Okay. It goes, some call it body dysmorphia. [34:15] I call it fuel. I don't like it at all. I hate it. I could not hate it more. I could not hate it more. Okay. [34:23] I've shopped it around. Some people like it. [34:28] Okay, man, it's very, it's deeply problematic. I know. I know, but it's like my own personal problematic-ness. It's not for other people. [34:40] It's for me. [34:41] You know? Okay. Yeah. I think that's what makes me sad. I think that's why it makes me sad. It's not like... [34:47] It's not like... [34:48] I think you're going to get canceled. I'm like... [34:51] Thank you. [34:52] You feel sadness for me. I feel sad for you as your friend. Yeah. [34:57] Yeah, totally. Okay. So next one. [35:00] This is not right. And that's, but I think it could be really funny. I love women so much. We really know when a friend needs to hear, Oh my God, that's so fucked up when it's really just normal. [35:14] Great. I was sitting in the park reading and these two girls walked by each other. And this girl is describing something. This girl goes, Oh my God, that's so fucked up. And I was like, there's no way what she just told her is fucked up. Like, there's just no way. And I was just like, but I, that's what she needed here.

[35:28] yeah yeah yeah i like that one i think you should send it okay okay cool [35:32] Anything on your end? I think it works as is. [35:34] Yeah, I have one that I think will always remain in drafts, but is a moment that I think is fun to revisit. So we can talk about it here. One of my favorite moments. [35:43] And it's not... [35:45] Proofread so it's not right. [35:46] But [35:47] One of my favorite moments was having... [35:50] one of my favorite moments in Paris. [35:52] was having a working lunch with at Miranda Martell and at Natasha G. Hoskins and chain drinking Badois so intensely. [36:00] that the table of ladies beside us gifted us their bottles. [36:04] *laughs* [36:05] We were so intense with the bad ones. These ladies next to us were like, please have our unfinished. Oh my gosh. Okay. Bye. Okay. Bye. Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening. And we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talked about here, you should come and have a good time with us. [36:35] as cheap as they are today. And we also have a promo code in our discord for boys club members. Come hang in Austin. [36:44] Friends. [36:45] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous... [36:58] Send it to one friend.

[37:00] Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.